Joe is going to start posting pictures of kill buyers.
GOOD. You go, Joe! You are doing the right thing, even if some 12 year olds don't understand why.
They will get it when they're 40 and remember everything you did to make a difference.
Friday, February 29, 2008
LOVE it. Joe's going to go for it!
Posted by fuglyhorseoftheday at 9:52 AM
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97 comments:
Good for Joe. I am behind him 100%. Show the world what these scum sucking shit bags look like.
Never worry about offending teenage girls with the truth. IIRC, they're always going to be offended about something anyway, especially on the Internet :).
The 1980's horse slaughter report I used for my unwanted horse report said that the average horse will bring $2500-3500 dressed, frozen, and ready to ship. I wonder how many cheap beginner's mounts have turned into a tidy profit?
Complete OT, but kuvaszvan and I have finalized travel arrangements and the rescued Rottie is headed to us tomorrow! Many thanks to Erin (transport coordinator) and Pam (WVA driver) and ESPECIALLY Caroline & her family & vet for caring enough about Brandy to spend their time and $$ to help her!!
ack! kuvaszFAN not van...LOL
I'm joking about continuously offended teens, BTW, I don't know that that's clear...
"Scum sucking shit bags"...
Wow. And you kiss your mother with that mouth.
I guess it's hard for me to get too worked up over the killers. They didn't breed the fifty-bajillion unwanted horses that are out there. And they aren't breeding more of them under the guise of "rescue ranching." They're just people who have no problem selling horses to the south of the border slaughter plants.
And really...I rather like knowing who the killers are at the local auction. And I don't need pictures of them to figure it out--most of them will flat out tell me who they are. A little conversation can go a long way. And I've found that really...they're not quite "scum sucking shit bags."
This doesn't mean I'm okay with selling a horse to them--as a matter of fact, I'm not. I'll put the poor thing down in my own backyard first.
I suppose I'm just a little uncomfortable with the smackings of vigilantism here. The kill buyers don't roast babies for dinner or squish kittens into custard. They're just making a living doing a very distasteful job. And they would probably appreciate not having their faces plastered all over the internet, making them personal targets for the self-righteous.
I know I do a job that's quite fashionably friendly....and *I'm* not okay with having my picture all over the internet.
Even the need for public pictures just seems a little odd to me here. I've never had trouble finding out who was a kill buyer and who wasn't. But then, I don't walk into auctions with my DON'T KILL THE PRETTY PONIES hat on.
I don't like horse slaughter. And I think the current killing methods are heinously cruel. So I'm grateful when a kill buyer is honest with me about his intentions. It's good to know who's buying for the butcher and who isn't....because I can adjust my sales plans accordingly.
I still say the kill buyers aren't the villains here. The slaughterhouse workers aren't the bad folks either. The real villains in this story are the unscrupulous breeders who keep their unbroken, unimpressive broodmares pregnant every year, the barn-blind slack-jaws who will stand anything with nuts as a public stud, the folks who are just so damn determined to squeeze a profit out of this hobby that they feel morally *obligated* to breed and breed and breed because that HYPP positive stud colt of theirs is just that darn good and he sure cost them enough, so they gotta recoup that money somehow.
Sorry, I just don't think this is quite right. The killers aren't the enemy here--it's the unscrupulous breeders who keep up the neverending supply of unwanted horseflesh.
WOOHOO, great for Joe! Life isn't all daisies and candy kids need to see the nasty part of life as well.
chester's mom and kuvaszfan, that is wonderful that you have saved such a great animal!
Thanks! She is such a great dog and deserves a nice home.
Chester's mom, thanks for providing her with a chance at a future.
another monday, I think you are missing the mark. There ARE those that do not ADMIT to being a kill buyer. They tell you what you want to hear.
"I am wanting this pony for my granddaughter" when what they mean is...wow he will make me money.
Fugly even says she doesn't hate the buyers they are making a buck on the system, but LYING about it is bullshit.
Honestly, I was a kid and my dad sold a horse at an auction to a guy and he said it was going to retrain and he was a cute/good horse, but I will NEVER know if Prince died a horrid death. It was 20 years ago and the meat market was strong and I was UNAWARE
There was always a guy you KNEW was the meat man and then soem "??" guys.
Thank you, Joe :)
"another monday, I think you are missing the mark. There ARE those that do not ADMIT to being a kill buyer. They tell you what you want to hear.
"I am wanting this pony for my granddaughter" when what they mean is...wow he will make me money."
You may be right, Chezza. I may be missing the mark. And if so, I apologize.
It just seems a little pointless to start posting pictures of nefarious kill buyers when most of the bigger ones are pretty up front about things. Yes, there are some who will lie and say that they just want your free pony for their crippled granddaughter. And the answer to that is to do some research, do a site check, get some references. Make the bastards *work* to cheat you.
And my other concern is this: has it occurred to Joe or anyone else who's wanting to post pictures of "killers" that they might be putting people in danger? Calling someone a horse-killer is pretty inflammatory language. Even the opening post on today's article describes kill buyers as "scum sucking shit bags." What's to stop someone from getting a grand idea to teach the infidels a lesson?
Seriously...posting someone's picture on the internet isn't a benign thing to do. And if you tack on the label "HORSE KILLER" next to the picture...you might well get that person seriously hurt or killed. This kind of business goes a little further than just "slander"...
Another monday....I believe the main complaint against killer buyers is not that they buy cheap horses at auction. My personal issue, and the one that FHOTD has posted, is when they pretend to be loving families that show up when they see a free or cheap horse advertised on the internet or local paper. In those cases, they are scum who are deliberately lying about giving "Ginger" a great home, only to turn around and load her on the truck. And in these cases, the owner is still greatly at fault, don't get me wrong. I believe FHOTD has put it beautifully when she states that the killer buyers at auctions are only Garbage Men, there to pick up the "trash" that some asshat owner has already tossed out. At the auction, most everyone knows who they are and they're not lying about where the horses are going.
"Another monday....I believe the main complaint against killer buyers is not that they buy cheap horses at auction. My personal issue, and the one that FHOTD has posted, is when they pretend to be loving families that show up when they see a free or cheap horse advertised on the internet or local paper. In those cases, they are scum who are deliberately lying about giving "Ginger" a great home, only to turn around and load her on the truck. And in these cases, the owner is still greatly at fault, don't get me wrong. I believe FHOTD has put it beautifully when she states that the killer buyers at auctions are only Garbage Men, there to pick up the "trash" that some asshat owner has already tossed out. At the auction, most everyone knows who they are and they're not lying about where the horses are going."
Well, as I said, there will always be liars. And the burden of remedy for that, unfortunately, will always need to be carried by the person *selling* their horse. A website of pictures won't keep a determined scheister from pretending to be something he's not. And as I mentioned as well, this website of pictures could put real people in honest danger. To me, it's just not worth it.
But I won't belabor this and clutter up the blog. I've said my peace. I would just please ask anyone posting pictures to please consider this course of action carefully. I don't believe it solves any problem, but if you do, then just...please be careful.
That's great and hey you don't need to know their names anyway. Just memorize their pictures and watch their bidding and buying patterns and you'll know who they are.
Until people stop breeding so many horses they will be making a fine living. It isn't just the cheap fugly horses that go on the trucks, there are a lot of nice horses in the wrong spot at the wrong time who end up there too. =(
Anothermonday....I also have issues with posting the pics. Part of me wants to say, "good for you, do it" but part of me is very shaky with it. It reminds me of religious groups posting "Hit Lists" of doctors who perform abortions...giving names and addresses and then crossing them off when some nut kills them. I don't think that will happen here, but it still makes me uneasy, mostly because I see Joe getting some sort of fallout from this.
I agree with anothermonday. Unless it is known for a fact that these buyers have misrepresented themselves and preyed off the innocent/ignorant 'free to good home/cheap' sellers, or are abusing the horses they buy, they are just doing a distasteful job, I don't think they should be vilified and have their faces plastered all over the internet. Just because they are at auctions buying someone else's stupid irresponsible choices, they aren't the cause of the problem. Some buyers do buy project horses to sell -- I guess that makes them rescues too. Sure they are in it for the money, a lot of people do the jobs they do for the money. I've never been anti-slaughter, because I think it would be very hypocritical to say you shouldn't slaughter the pretty horsies, while wearing my leather shoes and talking through a mouthful of t-bone steak. Yes, I know that 'other' livestock are specifically raised for slaughter, blah, blah, blah, most of the anti-horse slaughter arguments I hear are just emotional mindless drivel. Maybe fewer horses are going to slaughter since they closed down the US plants, unfortunately, it is still the fate of many many horses and now they face a much longer hideous journey before their end, or they are left to starve, because they can't even be sold or given away. Good job, animal rights folks. My wish for all animals bound for slaughter is for them to be treated humanely and have a quick and painless as possible end.
Let's imagine a world in which all the kill buyers have been shamed, intimidated, and harassed out of their line of work. Will horses be better off? What then will become of unwanted horses? Will the racing industry automatically be more careful and conscientious about their retirees? Will BYB's be more prone to gelding? I doubt it. We will just have more abandoned horses. This is a complicated problem and kill buyers aren't the only cause, or even the most important cause.
Thank you, Doni1010--that's rather what I was worried about too.
I agree that the kill buyers who buy under false pretenses need to be stopped...just as the USDA licensed "Bunchers" who round up "free to a good home" pets for resale to laboratories and medical supply companies need to be stopped.
But posting pictures won't likely get this done. I know that there has been Federal prosecution of USDA bunchers for buying under false pretenses. I know that in many cases, this litigation has been successful and the bunchers have lost their licenses and been shut down. Might it not be possible to apply the same legal redress to the horse industry as well?
Yes, the problem is with the KB's who lie about being KB's.
As for not putting pictures up as they may endanger someone, celebrities are stalked every day and that does not keep us from putting their pictures everywhere. There is no difference.
Anothermonday...I wish there was the same redress, I just don't know how that would happen. I know that Cal has law against defrauding an owner of their horse to sell for slaughter...I think lying about why you are buying that horse *may* be covered under that. But unforetunately most people have no idea what has happened to their horse once it leaves the property, never wrote up even a simple bill of sale or contract, and probably don't even know the real name of the person buying their horse in the first place. Even if they do, they then have to try to take some legal action, and I doubt someone dumping off a cheap/free horse wants to bother themselves with that. I think it was also slightly easy with small animals and labs because they were labs in the US...I don't know how much could be done for the horses shipped to Mexico and Canada.
Also, just because I think the KB's aren't the real problem does not mean I think it's an honorable profession. If they decided to do something else for a living due to societal pressure, I sure wouldn't cry!
I wrote this at the tail end of the last Blog Topic...(I always sem to do that)
I think it is still relevent to the current topic.
**************************
I for one am not 100% against slaughter. I am however 100,000,000% against cruelty!
I have no patience for
Indiscriminate breeding
Non existant training
Cruel behavior
lazy-ass owners/handlers
OF ANY ANIMAL be it a dairy cow, sheep, dog, parakeet or horse.
Whomever eats the horse isnt the issue. They are just the end of a LONG LINE.
The KB's aren't even the REAL issue here, they aren't entirely innocent, but not the "evil-doers" either...just as some of you have said/written they are just doing a job, making money filling a void.
They do however need to be more humane in thier transport and treatment of these animals.
The slaughter houses, yes they need to up thier anty
More humane treatment.
Slaughter methods designed with Equines in mind.
The biggest culprit I SEE, if you agree or not doesn't matter they aren't innocent NONE OF THEM ARE!!!
BREEDERS...if every breeder in the country BYB, Legit, etc if every one decided NOT TO BREED for 1 year. Just one year...populations would go down.
Those of you more in the know, if every person with a mare and or stallion didnt breed for one year (AND DIDNT MAKE UP FOR THAT THE FOLLOWING YEARS OF COURSE) what kind of decline would we have? Would it be worth it?
Perhaps a campaign nation-wide hell WORLD WIDE
alerting people to the population issue.
Asking people NOT to breed for one year...
It could happen...couldnt it?
anothermonday said:
I still say the kill buyers aren't the villains here. The slaughterhouse workers aren't the bad folks either. The real villains in this story are the unscrupulous breeders who keep their unbroken, unimpressive broodmares pregnant every year, the barn-blind slack-jaws who will stand anything with nuts as a public stud, the folks who are just so damn determined to squeeze a profit out of this hobby that they feel morally *obligated* to breed and breed and breed because that HYPP positive stud colt of theirs is just that darn good and he sure cost them enough, so they gotta recoup that money somehow.
~~~~~~~~~
Zackly! The BYBers are the real issue.
I say,"Way to go,Joe!" I don't think the KB are honorable men and women.I'm behind you Joe.
"Anothermonday...I wish there was the same redress, I just don't know how that would happen. I know that Cal has law against defrauding an owner of their horse to sell for slaughter...I think lying about why you are buying that horse *may* be covered under that"..."I think it was also slightly easy with small animals and labs because they were labs in the US...I don't know how much could be done for the horses shipped to Mexico and Canada."
I'm not entirely certain how the law can be applied here either. I'm not a lawyer, I just started looking into this with the USDA buncher issue.
But to me, the most obvious answer lies in the humane transport laws that are already on the books. It's expensive to ship horses properly...so haulers will often resort to double-decker cattle trucks to maximize the number of head per square foot of space, particularly if they're not too squeamish about what condition their cargo is in by the time they arrive. It's not legal to haul horses like cattle, even if the traditional double-decker trailer fits so many more head than a proper horse trailer will. But this sort of thing doesn't usually come to public light until one of those overloaded trucks overturns on an icy Minnisota road, and it becomes a six o'clock news catastrophy.
So, if I were trying to stop the slaughter industry, enforcing the current laws we already have would be where I'd start. I'd start demanding checks at auction houses to ensure that horses were being properly loaded onto legal trucks. I'd start demanding that the laws for interstate livestock transport be enforced--that trucks would *be* stopped and their cargo inspected for compliance. And I'd start demanding felony sentences for haulers who break the law by packing cattle trucks full of horses.
And I'd want this...not because it's some kind of moral or ethical battle...but because I want to make things expensive.
I want to make it costly to haul a trailer full of doomed horses to Mexico or Canada. I want haulers to be nervous about driving illegally-packed double-deckers across state borders because they know the Johnnies are out looking for them. I want drivers to know they could face actual jail time for breaking the laws we already have in place...this way they'll start being hesitant to do the work. And then the kill buyers and meat packers will have to pay them *better*.
And while the kill buyers are handing out more money to the nervous drivers, let's make it hard to get double-deckers across the state borders. These trucks already have to stop at weigh stations. Why aren't the State Patrol officers there *checking* inside these trucks to see if it's actually cattle inside (which are legal) and not horses (which are not.) I mean...it's already acceptable practice to inspect cargo at State weigh stations. Why aren't we checking to make sure the right SPECIES is in the truck?
Let's make it so that the kill buyers have to haul their stock with increasingly expensive overhead. Let's let the price of diesel really hurt for a change. That will drive up the price per pound that they need to recoup from the slaughterhouses. And this will, in turn, make things harder on the slaughterhouses and drive up *their* costs.
This is why I'm not a big fan of pictures. I want to see something more diabolical done. I want to see the industry have to obey the laws they currently skirt so easily. I want to see it cost more and more money to run truckloads of horses to the slaughter plants. I'd like to read about kill buyers getting out of the business altogether because, "It just doesn't make money like it used to...."
To me, that's how you stop them. You make it so expensive to do business that they find some other business to do.
i like your proposal, anothermonday. i think most of us want the same here on FHOTD - we just see different ways of getting there. but i think what you propose - making it expensive and difficult to get away with cruel practices - is both the most fair, and the most likely to work.
any lawyers/legislative advocates here? i'm trying to relocate to washington dc in the nearish future and would looooove to work on precisely such an issue. (hint, hint, one and alll!! haha)
I say we continue what Fugly is doing and publish the idiots who continually breed low-grade horses. How else can we out them? THEY are the ones who keep the kill buyers in business, aren't they?
Why not just post a picture of everyone who brings a unkempt, skinny, untrained, no skill horse to sell and lets it go to a KB? Or even the ones who bring the nice ones and let them go to KB? Or how about all the AI stock horse people who breed 100's a year? Or the TB/Standardbred race horse owners who dump them after they are wornout? What about the people who don't want their horse to go to KB so they dump them in the desert of Arizona or Utah, or out on the grasslands here in WY. They are the guilty ones. Put their mugs up there.
I like what Joe does and I hope that someday my daughter gets one of his horses (when she had a job and adequate savings), but this could have repercussions no one has thought of. Anothermonday's worried about the KB, but what about Joe? I guess he's thought about what happens if something terrible happens to him.
BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO!
Maybe a dollar amount on the head of folks selling the horses to them would be good too...
I can't imagine eating a horse any more than I can imagine eating a dog, but I also know that there are other cultures that do not necessarily look at every horse or dog and see "pet".
I agree with those of you who say that without horse slaughter the numbers of unusable, old, abandoned, unwanted horses would likely be a problem. What would the solution be in this world of ever decreasing undevoloped space and resources? My own heart hurts at the thought of horses goig for food, but my realistic, logical side knows that this is not a universal sentiment, and that there is a need of...disposal? (for lack of a better word) for the multitudes of unwanted horses.
So, blame the kill buyer? Not the right link of the chain, to target, I think. I DO think that it is heinous to come to someone's home and misrespresent yourself, so picutes as a resource for people to check when they are selling or giving away a horse--the more resources the merrier. Just for education, though, not for activism.
Where does the blame for this topic, which obviously people feel strongly about?
1. Irresponsible breeders, definately. Breeding responsibly would cut the numbers down, making the need for kill buyers less.
2. If I am being honest and rational, my BIGGEST problem with slaughter isn't that some person is going to be eating horsemeat. I'm grossed out by it, but then I am grossed out by most food, and I see horses as pets and not meat, but I get the other side. The BIGGEST problem that I have is the inhumane way that the animals are treated in transport and at the slaughterhouses.
So #2 is regulation. If slaughter were legal in the US then it would be possible to lobby for legislation that would regulate how these horses meet their end, and hopefully make the process much less of a sickening nightmare than it is.
Anyway, I don't WANT any horse to go to slaughter, but I realize that that is my thing, not everone and wanting is not going to do a damn thing. If people are serious about ending slaughter, then lobby for regulation in breeding, cut out the irresponsible breeders (good luck, think the super rich and likely politically powerful thoroughbred breeders. Stop the supply.
Secondly, fight for humane treatment of the horses.
So, use the pictures as a resource when selling your horse, but put the blame where blame is due, and energy into activism that will actually get results.
Anyway...
Anothermonday, I like to see breeders pay a huge fee for the privilege of breeding. I've read many say, it would be economically devastating to them. What? So is having the market flooded! And yes, I know many BYB's would try to escape the fee (licensing whatever) but I bet most would just stop. $$ talks. And hurts.
It could be collected via property taxes, all mares cost x and all stallions xxx, geldings and spayed mare (proof required) are exempt. $$ collect to go to fund an enforcement program.
sorry for the typos...must remember to proof read...
Anothermonday-
Let's make it so that the kill buyers have to haul their stock with increasingly expensive overhead. Let's let the price of diesel really hurt for a change. That will drive up the price per pound that they need to recoup from the slaughterhouses. And this will, in turn, make things harder on the slaughterhouses and drive up *their* costs.
Sorry, but here I have to say you really fucked up. This may not be the direction you intended this to go... but, it did.
Many of us who compete with our horses drive diesels to pull our horse trailers. Many of the farmers who drive tractors to plant and harvest crops, fill the tanks with diesel. All the freight companies that deliver groceries, shoes, clothes and other commodities to the local Stop-N-Shop, all run on diesel.
You will not only increase THEIR costs, but the price of everything across the board will go up. Shit rolls downhill.
"Anothermonday, I like to see breeders pay a huge fee for the privilege of breeding. I've read many say, it would be economically devastating to them. What? So is having the market flooded! And yes, I know many BYB's would try to escape the fee (licensing whatever) but I bet most would just stop. $$ talks. And hurts.
It could be collected via property taxes, all mares cost x and all stallions xxx, geldings and spayed mare (proof required) are exempt. $$ collect to go to fund an enforcement program."
Oh...my....God....
Marry me.
Seriously.
The irony is just too wonderful. The proceeds from the tax would benefit the humane enforcement programs...heck, 'round here you could probably get county-wide a free spay/neuter/and gelding program going based just on a nominal "production head" tax.
Also...it is just me or does the Washington State application of sales tax ONLY to geldings seem both stupid AND pointless?
(Yes, yes, I know, it only applies to geldings because mares and stallions are "production stock" and thus, considered wholesale items. But come ON...we have a crisis of overproduction in this State--can we PLEASE do something to offer incentives to NOT breed your stock?)
As a horse lover in the US I definitely take issue with eating horse meat. My family however, who are all in Belgium, eat horse meat as regularly as I eat a tasty lamb chop. Though I personally will never eat horse meat, I'm not about to tell other people what they can and cannot eat.
I agree with anothermonday and believe that the real issue is not with the consumer of horse meat, but rather with the way these animals are treated en route to slaughter.
I think that making shipping horses for slaughter a logistical nightmare is the only real way to stop kill buyers. Legal ramifications, if enforced, could really put a damper on these peoples livelihoods and practices which is the only real way to accomplish anything.
I think putting the kb's pictures up is a shallow stab at a much deeper issue and will have no real benefit.
If you read Jo's message for today, he said that Manny Phelps would be more than happy to pose for a picture, indicating that obviously KB's don't care and will continue to do their jobs despite our rantings.
Hit them in the wallet and then you'll see change.
check out this email someone just sent me...
Subject: U.S. Horse Owners in Favor Of Re-Opening Slaughter Plants - Online Petition
I saw this petition on line, and it makes a lot of sense. Since they've closed down the slaughter horses in America, horses are being hauled to Canada and Mexico in inhumane, awful conditions. Check it out at least and sign if you are FOR Re-opening the plants. After plants were closed, the cost of hay and grain sky rocketed, as well as the "good" horses, the 4'H horses, and back yard trail horses, well, their worthless. Its driving the cost of out "good" horses down, and feed up. Besides, what else are you going to do w/ a crippled horse, an untrainable one, or one that's just incredibly dangerous? Check out the site, and make your own decisions. Thank you !
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/horse-owners-in-favor-of-re-opening-slaughter-plants.html
I agree with AnotherMonday. There are more tactful ways of getting slaughter stopped. Horse slaughter is a business and when it becomes too expensive to buy, transport, and processes them, people won't do it anymore.
When these BYBs can't sell their horses to slaughter anymore, they will have to cut down how many they breed a year, especially if animal protection laws are more widely inforced to stop people from starving their horses or keeping too many animals on too small a property.
Another thing, I think rescues, the real rescues, should put down old, crippled, sick horses if they can't find homes. There are so many horses without homes and the rescues have so many 'lifers' that they can't take in the ones who might actually be nice once they've been cleaned up, feed, wormed, vetted, trimmed, and trained right. I know its sad that you may have to put down some old friends, but there are so many nice young horses (especially tbs) going to slaughter who could make good riding horses if people only had the room/money to take them in.
And I also agree that KB are not enemy number one, maybe not even Top 5, but posting KB who LIE about what they're planning to do with their horses isn't mean or self-righteous.
But people who are selling their 'free to a good home's should have a proper Bill of Sale to prevent fraud. Its just not that hard.
I went to Joe's website and read his reasons for wanting to post pictures which include some kill buyers that have offered to pose for the pictures. And maybe some of them have nothing to hide. I am for posting their pictures.
Bottom line is that they are making a nice profit doing something that traumatizes and injures horses (hauling to slaughter houses). And that is something the entire horse industry should be against. Let them make their profits humanely in single level trailers.
I think anothermonday has great ideas..... I would only add that it be illegal to cross US borders with slaughter horses after 4pm. Make them haul them in daylight hours so the entire public can "help" monitor what is going on. There is no reason that a horse has to be loaded up in the dark.
"Sorry, but here I have to say you really fucked up. This may not be the direction you intended this to go... but, it did.
Many of us who compete with our horses drive diesels to pull our horse trailers. Many of the farmers who drive tractors to plant and harvest crops, fill the tanks with diesel. All the freight companies that deliver groceries, shoes, clothes and other commodities to the local Stop-N-Shop, all run on diesel.
You will not only increase THEIR costs, but the price of everything across the board will go up. Shit rolls downhill."
You're right--that's not the direction I was going. I own a diesel--I bought it back before the price of crude made driving my truck an exercise in fiscal hemorrhage. Put a loaded horse trailer behind my truck and I might as well just open my wallet and throw money out the window. It would actually be cheaper. ;)
I apologize for offending you, CutNJump. I was not advocating to raise the cost of diesel--my point was to let the cost of fuel really hurt the folks hauling to the slaughterhouses by forcing them to haul fewer head at a time.
The way I see it, slaughterhouse hauling is a numbers game--the more head packed into a truck, the more profit gained from the end sale. If slaughterhouse haulers had to adhere to the legal limits set on trailer type, head count, and trailer load, they couldn't haul as many horses per truckload as they do now. So, it would require more loads to get the same number of horses across the border. This would increase hauler/kill buyer overhead cost dramatically and carve deeply into their profit margin.
That was my point. Again, I apologize for the miscommunication.
I don't think people should make horse breeding anymore expensive than it is, it will hurt those who actually do a good jb as well as those who don't (besides people who don't plan to breed their mare but don't want to put her in danger by spaying her), I think this is bordering on Socialist.
I do, however, think breeders who geld their colts should get a tax break, as well as cat and dog breeders.
only1fugly4me said...
Anothermonday, I like to see breeders pay a huge fee for the privilege of breeding. I've read many say, it would be economically devastating to them. What? So is having the market flooded! And yes, I know many BYB's would try to escape the fee (licensing whatever) but I bet most would just stop. $$ talks. And hurts.
It could be collected via property taxes, all mares cost x and all stallions xxx, geldings and spayed mare (proof required) are exempt. $$ collect to go to fund an enforcement program.
They have that here with dogs. Licensing is $XX if your dog is intact and breedable, male or female. If the dog is altered (speutered) then it is $X every 3 years.
Yet still there are strays with no collars running about loose on the streets. Running in packs and attacking livestock in the rural areas where folks dump their pets off for the farmers as a watchdog or barn cat...
Thanks but no. It already isn't working on small animals why would it work for larger ones? Besides, if you don't pay the fee, what happens to the horses? People are losing their houses because they can't afford them, now you want to tax the shit out of them on their horses?
We have enough taxes as it is.
"I would only add that it be illegal to cross US borders with slaughter horses after 4pm. Make them haul them in daylight hours so the entire public can "help" monitor what is going on. There is no reason that a horse has to be loaded up in the dark."
And you know, you could justify this so readily by pointing out the obvious safety benefits--large, heavily loaded trailers require increased stopping time. And trailers hauling live animals require an increased stopping time beyond that of trucks carrying inert cargo, due to the perpetual shifting of the livestock inside.
You just wave the Big Banner Of Safety here.
And show how many trailers have already crashed due to too many horses cramped into a trailer that was driven at night.
Hey said he's not post pictures.
Teens are too biased from their parents, they don't know an ass from a jackass. Whatever they hear from ther parents is what they preach themselves. Their opinion should be none of his concern.
Another monday- I am not offended, by any means. The price of fuel would hit us all in the wallet in various other ways, not the select few we would like to see, and not as directly as you had put it. That's where I was going with it.
We also own a diesel and the reason fuel is so much more expensive than unleaded when the refining process is so much shorter, is a blatent gouging of the consumers which is allowed to continue.
People bought them for their 'toy haulers' since the mpg is almost double. The power is also a bonus. Consumers want them, manufacturers make them and the fuel company powers them while charging us all a small fortune.
"We also own a diesel and the reason fuel is so much more expensive than unleaded when the refining process is so much shorter, is a blatent gouging of the consumers which is allowed to continue."
I still don't understand how the Official Congressional Investigation found "absolutely no sign of wrongdoing" on the part of the oil companies in the post-Rita price increases for diesel. I actually had one little pencil-neck try to tell me it was because of the "increased production time associated with premium diesel."
I just shook my head. "Dude, I worked for TEXACO back in the day. Until you can tell the cat cracker from the coker...uh...don't even *try* to tell me it's expensive to make diesel."
Of course, I lost him at cat cracker...which was unfortunate because I had so much more to say on the subject. :(
But yes, we're being cheated...and cheated royally.
I really want a backyard Biodiesel still. Anyone know where I can get one?
Anothermonday-
"I would only add that it be illegal to cross US borders with slaughter horses after 4pm. Make them haul them in daylight hours so the entire public can "help" monitor what is going on. There is no reason that a horse has to be loaded up in the dark."
Sorry gotta disagree here too. In Phoenix and pretty much most of Aridzona it is still 100+ degrees at 10pm buring the summer. Today it is 81 and yesterday it was 82 degrees.
So you might not wish to see the horses hauled at night, but when the temps are that high, evening transport is actually for the horses benifit since a good number pass through the border here too.
The buyers, haulers and those helping to load are to blame for how the horses are handled during the trip, but the whole 'hauler' situation as well as the horse industry as a whole has very little or no regulation.
Where it is regulated, however weakly or stringent the enforcement is usually lacking or insuffcient at best.
Unfortunately, from what I hear "good breeders" are either:
Not suffering because what they breed qualitywise/show material/whatever is not affected
or
Suffering because the market sucks (due to too many horses)
We all want to whine, we are for or against, we are willing to do anything to fix a symptom but not the problem, but I just don't see any ideas coming out other than stop slaughter and close the borders, neither of which will limit the number of horses produced in this country every year.
I'd gladly pay something every year to own my two mares, which one should never be bred and one is quality but will not be bred. I know it will hit some harder. I know it won't be a cure, but it's a start. I used to live in Missouri and if I remember right we had to pay property taxes on geldings, too, but not mares or stallions. How bassackwards. And as far as dogs and cats running loose, well people are turning their horses loose, too, so hell's bell's let's just do nothing. Enforcement is always difficult.
This is the same mentality I got when a lady on another site lamented the fact that people were losing their jobs and had no where to go and I emailed her a site from one of the fastest growing cities in the US that is desperate for workers and she emailed back that it just wasn't feasible for people to up and move to where the work was and for families to be apart if only dad went and worked (hey, the Mexicans do it all the time, and my own family has done it) and oh, my it was dirty blue collar work in the cold and heat, and, and, and,... Okay, lose your home, don't help yourself, eat your self-pity and feed your kids with it, too, and wait for the government to do something about it. That's the answer, I guess.
buring=During. See the heat is affecting my brain...
*headesk*
CutNJump said, "...the reason fuel is so much more expensive than unleaded when the refining process is so much shorter, is a blatent gouging...Consumers want them, manufacturers make them and the fuel company powers them while charging us all a small fortune."
And because diesel is used to ship anything and everything from shoes to milk to aircraft parts, we all get inflation as a reward for their greed. Isn't that special?
That quote actually belongs to Norski, CutNJump. It's in my post because I was commenting on it.
But both of you raise valid issues. Norski offers the "daytime only" option to get more public oversight...and unfortunately, hot temperatures make daytime hauling pretty awful for the living cargo, as you CutNJump, point out.
My big issue is that I just want to see the commercial livestock and equine transportation laws enforced to their fullest extent. And I want to see that just because it will take a big bite out of the wallets of the horse slaughter industry.
(This is why I'll never make it in politics--I'm as subtle as a sledgehammer most days...)
I have to be careful what I ask for here--it's already a huge PITA to move horses commercially if you're a legitimate hauler. Increased regulation will hinder professional (legitimate) haulers and hurt those of us in the show industries, if things get too stupid.
So...my concept is to take the current laws we have and figure out why in Hell's name they're not being enforced. Because we still have double-deckers going into Canada and Mexico...and we simply should NOT. And every inconvenience we can offer the slaughter industry cuts into their profits. And if we can significantly cut into their hauling budget with existing legislation, then quite possibly we could change the price of horsemeat and make it harder for the killers to stay in the black.
But this is not the only solution. It's just one of many potential fixes here. We still have BYB's flooding the market and it's difficult to get them to stop. And it's just as difficult to get the overseas markets to stop buying horsemeat. So, hauling is an easier target than the other two. But it is not the only one. There are other solutions to be found that can help curb the industry. And the beauty of the equestrian community is how passionate and intelligent we all are about this. No matter where you stand on the slaughter issue, all of us are devoted to our horses. That right there tells me we have enormous power to change this unfortunate situation for the better.
Only1fugly4me-
This is the same mentality I got when a lady on another site lamented the fact that people were losing their jobs and had no where to go...
So they lost their job and are in danger of losing their house. How are they supposed to get to the city where the jobs are?
There are a bunch of folks here who would go where the money is, the KB are doing just that, but with no job and a stack of bills, packing up and traveling any distance to no guarantee of a job or a place to sleep is pretty damn scary for anyone of any age, even if they could afford to get there...
I am not heartless, nor do I not have a brain, I sometimes have courage...wait, I'm not in Kansas anymore.
She would not even look at the site. Some of the companies had moving packages (back when I lived there) the city was recruiting heavily in Michigan (because their climate was similar and they had lost their homes and were pretty much penniless, too). The Mexicans flooded in, how do they do it? I don't know. I just know whatever aid is given to people in these situations, is going to be short term and they can stay put and live on it, or eat mac&cheese while dad goes somewhere there is work and sends the money home. It was something and it was more than a bone.
((Sigh)). I guess the answer is to save one sea star at a time.
OK, so is posting the pics of the KB's going to guilt or shame them into another profession? Highly unlikely. These people are cold and uncaring by nature to treat horses, or any animal, the way they do. i.e. forcing an injured, or healthy for that matter, animal into a trailer to suffer with their injuries for who knows how long of a ride with out food, water or rest just to be whacked by a captive bolt or stabbed (most likely) repeatedly in the neck with a knife until dying. (I think we all know that neither of these methods always create instant death.)
I think the point of posting the pics of these people should be more to make those who want to save a horse from slaughter aware of who they should be out bidding at an auction, and to educate those giving horses away that they are out there and will lie to you to make money on your poor horse. It sucks that buying horses for slaughter is a business, but it is a business none the less and until the root of the problem is addressed and attempts made to correct the problems these people will continue to have lucrative jobs. It’s all about supply and demand folks, and as long as the US is supplying the Europeans are demanding and that keeps the KB’s mouths fed. Once the well dries up these people will have to find a new way to make a living, hopefully not by just changing to a different species. The well will only start to dry up when the government starts educating horse owners and starts regulating breeding.
I will say, as I kind of said on the "dealer who ship" blog, I enjoy the dialogue, I don't get easily insulted if people use facts and spout opinions (even ones that say redneck hillbilly backwoods white trash BYB hermit-types all live in Temeculah and are from the South because they are retired military), I might correct, am amenable to correction and I think brainstorming for solutions is (dang, better not use the word stimulating here) purposeful.
signed, the Italian/Irish/Basque fugly (certainly not a purebred am I, is there a registry for me?)
You know, Only1Fugly4Me,the brainstorming is why I read this blog most of the time.
I do enjoy the snarky commentary on horribly bred horses with nightmare conformation...but really, when it comes down to brass tacks, some of the best ideas get tossed around by this crew. We have some wickedly smart folks here and you are very much one of them.
Enigma--It would be better if we could fix the problem before the government gets involved, on a federal level at least. I don't think they could be efficient and everyone would be treated the same (Army brat here, time for physical, strip down to your skivvys and stand in line with the other Army brats, be evaluated in front of others and get 50 bajillion shots need them or not). Fill out papers, they get lost.
How are they going to regulate? Through inspections? Through taxes? (hey, that was my idea! I was reminded it's Socialist)
The BLM runs their own little disaster (hey, they are trying, trying counts only in kindergarten). I believe that's a government run program.
(blush, blush) Thanks, anothermonday, and thanks, too for the marriage proposal. But you see, I'm old, and....married.....to a man who works hard to support my bad horsey habit.
I personally think the kill buyers who show up with their heart on their sleeve and a little kid to add to the picture are the scum. The people who thoughtlessly/mindlessly breed an animal (any animal) not knowing that it may end up on a plate/in a landfill/in other animal's dishes are the people who need to be pictured. ANYONE who puts an animal thru ANY kind of torturous pain and suffering needs to be plastered on a billboard. The angels like Joe have my full support to make the rest of the world wearing rose-colored glasses and singing fairy tales about dumping off their unwanted pets be they horses or smaller, to become AWARE of the catastrophe they are creating by not spaying, neutering or gelding their creatures...
Dragonhawk-
>And because diesel is used to ship anything and everything from shoes to milk to aircraft parts, we all get inflation as a reward for their greed. Isn't that special?<
That's what I meant by shit rolling downhill. Good old "Trickle Down Economics" meaning the end user pays the most for everything. All costs are absorbed and reflected in the purchase price on the tag.
Anothermonday- sorry for the misquote.
>I have to be careful what I ask for here--it's already a huge PITA to move horses commercially if you're a legitimate hauler. Increased regulation will hinder professional (legitimate) haulers and hurt those of us in the show industries, if things get too stupid.<
We used to haul for about 3 years, while saving up for our property. We had been hauling our own so why not provide great service for others?
Hauling horses for other people is not the huge PITA most folks think it is. Every horse needs a health cert and Coggins before traveling across state lines. Some states require Rabies vaccinations. You can check requirements at horsetrip.com
Depending on the size of your rig you may not need any special endorsements on your license, and you do not have to keep a log like commercial carriers-truckload or LTL. You are not required to get out of the truck or stop every so often like the commercial carriers.
We used a one ton pick up and a 3 horse slant to keep it small and personalized. We looked like the average Joe going across town to ride.
You are required to stop at every POE (Port Of Entry) usually on state lines. There you present your paperwork, fill out a short form stating where the horse is from, where it's going and check the box next to why- show, sale, bought, sold, etc. They rarely go out to your vehicle and check anything!
The POE coming into AZ from CA is generally closed, due to budget cuts. The sign on the door states the hours of operation, but also states they "may or may not be open during posted times". Nice!
So there really is little or no regulations as far as hauling goes. There is also little to no regulation on selling, ownership, breeding, boarding, training or even giving lessons.
We could sure use some, but I have a feeling the people in a position to do some good, aren't going to go to the public for help in putting anything in place for our own good.
And those who are the biggest reason for the need, will be the first and loudest to bitch and scream about their rights being taken away. They usually are.
cutnjump: And those who are the biggest reason for the need, will be the first and loudest to bitch and scream about their rights being taken away. They usually are.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Truer words were never spoken. --a quote from someone, I am sure (heard it enough, anyway)
I'm sorry I haven't read all of the posts. I'm not even sure anyone is reading this anymore....
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anothermonday wrote:Let's make it so that the kill buyers have to haul their stock with increasingly expensive overhead. Let's let the price of diesel really hurt for a change. That will drive up the price per pound that they need to recoup from the slaughterhouses. And this will, in turn, make things harder on the slaughterhouses and drive up *their* costs
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Problem with this is that it IS an industry...
The meat will go up in price because it will be more expensive to truck.
The auction houses will make more money because there is more demand
The BYB's will make more moeny because thier crap will be IN MORE DEMAND....
While the legality I do agree with, and I agree that in the beginning it will help. But if Joe Blow is getting more for his fugly that he bred in the back yard...why the EFF wouldnt he breed MORE!
JMO
I'm all for it as well, I just hope it doesn't backfire.
Here on the east coast there is a KB named Nickerson and he works with rescues and helps alot of horses who would otherwise end up at slaughter houses. He is still a KB, but a good KB, if there is such a thing. However, if people get ugly with him about rescues he won't deal with them and that hurts {well, kills} horses.
Best of luck to Joe! :)
Also, I don't think posting pic's of the KB's will do much other than
1 give us an idea of who is who (not a bad thing)
2 Put them in danger...I'm sorry fugly a celebrity who has his/her photo everywhere is NOT THE SAME THING as pasting photos of someone who does something heinous for a living!
A Movie isn't that touchy of a subject...this obviously IS.
Also, those who are dumping a cheap horse "free to good home" a site check, refrence check etc will weed out the KB's...homework people!
Sarmichka, I think if fuel prices went up the additional cost will be passed upwards, to the buyers in Canada and Mexico, and to perhaps the consumer, or the KB will just make less. But the commodity will not be more valuable, thus no increase in price to the producer.
only1fugly4me – I totally agree that government intervention is not likely to be as effective as I would hope that it would be, but I believe the government is the only entity that has the resources to start the educating the general public. It HAS to start somewhere and I don’t see many industries stepping up and saying to it’s members “OK now, we have too many horses in the US so everyone has to start breeding more discriminately and it will be your responsibility to educate your buyers on proper horse care.”, or offering the resources to do so. The problem is that those heavily in to the industry believe they are already breeding discriminately and they don’t have the time or the resources to educate buyers.
I honestly don’t know what the solution is, but government “monitoring” seems to be helping in other countries why not here? I do my part to try to educate those who will listen to the advice I offer and I refer people to the educational resources that are available (i.e. books, magazines, vets, training stables, etc.), and I’ve seen the differences I have made in horses and their owners lives. I guess I just figure if the government (either on its own or through the horse industry) could do a little of the same it could make a big difference for *some* of the horses and owners headed down the path of destruction, i.e. slaughter. **sigh** Guess I’m sort of an optimist, huh?
Sarmichka-
A few of us have been over this already. I will catch you up in a few sentences.
We will all pay more for gas, not just them. We will also pay more for everything else, as almost anything you buy in the store was trucked in from somewhere, by a trucker using diesel fuel. His operating costs go up, so do the costs for his services. It all get figured into the price tag on whatever you want or need to buy.
Coopersfangirl wrote: don't think people should make horse breeding anymore expensive than it is, it will hurt those who actually do a good jb as well as those who don't"
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WTF are you crazy?
BREEDING IS THE PROBLEM!!!!
Yes make it expensive!
Tax breaks for SPAYING AND GELDING
Txes for BREEDABLE ANIMALS
guess what will happen...those that CAN put the money into QUALITY animals WILL! The BYB will be priced out.
However in order to do thise effectively we'd need to make gelding and spaying as inexpensive as possible...they're doing it with dogs and cats there are low cost programs everywhere.
Then only those who can afford to keep a stallion or mare of breedable age will, those are the people I tend to trust, not all are perfect some stupid rich people out there...but the chances are better.
only1fugly4me said...
>cutnjump: And those who are the biggest reason for the need, will be the first and loudest to bitch and scream about their rights being taken away. They usually are.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Truer words were never spoken. --a quote from someone, I am sure (heard it enough, anyway)<
------------------------------
Every time I hear someone complaining and whining lately, it is usually the person who got smacked down by the exact thing, they themselves would have been the first in line to bitch about, if the shoe was on the other foot.
My horse always does XXXX when we are at a show. But yet if another horse doing XXXX upsets theirs, they are the first one in the show office bitching about the other horse.
I can bet we all know someone who fits these parameters...
cutnjump...we usually agree but here we differ...I'm sorry...
you wrote: They have that here with dogs. Licensing is $XX if your dog is intact and breedable, male or female. If the dog is altered (speutered) then it is $X every 3 years.
Yet still there are strays with no collars running about loose on the streets. Running in packs and attacking livestock in the rural areas where folks dump their pets off for the farmers as a watchdog or barn cat...
Thanks but no. It already isn't working on small animals why would it work for larger ones? Besides, if you don't pay the fee, what happens to the horses? People are losing their houses because they can't afford them, now you want to tax the shit out of them on their horses?
********************
What do packs of stray dogs have ANYTHING to do with horses? Are there also herds of stay horses running loose in your BY (not counting mustangs)
If someone can't afford thier house, get a cheaper house!
If someone can't afford a BREEDABLE horse which is what we are discussing here get one that is already altered! Or get your'S altered!
My thinking is a tax break for altered animals, if your's aren't, then until you alter them you get TAXED! Every year...
BREEDERS ARE THE ISSUE,
NO SUPPLY = NO DEMAND
Taxes for breeding presents a smaler problem which could get larger as time goes on.
With a lot of folks living one illness of upset away from disaster and losing their houses, pets-not just dogs and cats but horses too are being dumped right and left, who does that leave to breed?
The big farms with their culls and production sales are going to be who everyone can turn to for their next horse. They have done such a great job so far, right? They will actually benefit. If we have only them to buy from, they can jack up the prices to where ever they want. Buyers will be paying for their breeding taxes, not them.
Responsible folks who produce one or two foals here and there, who put time, energy and thought (I know, what a concept!) into their programs, are going to be among the hardest hit and first to be wiped out.
only1fugly4me wrote: think if fuel prices went up the additional cost will be passed upwards, to the buyers in Canada and Mexico,
*****************
fuel prices are ALREADY going up...nothing new there.
But if the cost to transport something goes up, but the demand is still there (don't see Frenchie giving up his steak) then the PRICE will go up...that will trickle down...
supply and demand...
Not my point anyway. I just don't think that is the way to do it. I DO AGREE that the laws NEED TO BE ENFORECED I just don't see it as the end all be all of the solution...
Sarmichka- people are tunring horses loose rather than take them to the auction, give them to a rescue or try to sell them. Every day. Sad fact.
The dogs are still running loose. Our neighbor is one of the problems. His dog is bred every heat cycle. He either half assed tries to get rid of the pups- if someone complains- or he dumps them at the pound.
Getting his bitch spayed would lower his dog license fee, but it still isn't done. And we are currently on litter #12!
The fees are in place with dogs and cats, but they aren't holding much water.
(I'm catching up...)
cutnjump wrote: We will all pay more for gas, not just them. We will also pay more for everything else, as almost anything you buy in the store was trucked in from somewhere, by a trucker using diesel fuel. His operating costs go up, so do the costs for his services. It all get figured into the price tag on whatever you want or need to buy"
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I understand that, I actually work in a place where we buy rather frequently from Holland (I'm in WNY)...and I understand the whole cost = price...
again, not my point...I'm simply saying that enforcing the laws? YaHoo! yes! do...
Not the FINAL ANSWER HERE...not the solution.
It will help, but not remove the issue.
Sarmichka-
NO SUPPLY = NO DEMAND
Sorry but gotta disagree with you here.
Usually no supply does not make the demand go away. It just makes the price of what is available go way up. Through the roof at times.
No demand makes the prices plumet. In horse market terms-
No demand for crappy ill bred horses with no training= Killer Buyer prices.
They have a value, it's just not the one we may all like.
Sarmichka-
I agree 1,000%. Enforceing the laws in place would be a start.
It would be a great start in fact for a lot of things and not just the horse market or slaughter/transport issue, but that is another day, and many other blogs...
Enforcing what's in place and giving teeth to the punishments handed down for the actions would go a long way towards changing the situation.
I work in the metals industry where the price of raw materials is steadily going up by the week if not daily.
cutnjump wrote:With a lot of folks living one illness of upset away from disaster and losing their houses, pets-not just dogs and cats but horses too are being dumped right and left, who does that leave to breed?
The big farms with their culls and production sales are going to be who everyone can turn to for their next horse. They have done such a great job so far, right? They will actually benefit. If we have only them to buy from, they can jack up the prices to where ever they want. Buyers will be paying for their breeding taxes, not them.
Responsible folks who produce one or two foals here and there, who put time, energy and thought (I know, what a concept!) into their programs, are going to be among the hardest hit and first to be wiped out.
***********************
Quality breeders who put the time, effort, money, into thier stock will get better prices because of the higher cost of thier stock.
the BYB's that "slip through the cracks" will still have thier fuglies...hopefully buy the grace of divine ...not so many.
My hope that if it is too expensive to have an un-altered animal, people will in the very least alter more animals especially if they are expecting a TAX BREAK....
people will inevitably (sp?) skirt the issue, that is just being human and american...but if we can lower the #'s why not try for it?
cutnjump wrote:people are tunring horses loose rather than take them to the auction, give them to a rescue or try to sell them. Every day. Sad fact.
The dogs are still running loose. Our neighbor is one of the problems. His dog is bred every heat cycle. He either half assed tries to get rid of the pups- if someone complains- or he dumps them at the pound.
Getting his bitch spayed would lower his dog license fee, but it still isn't done. And we are currently on litter #12!
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I understand that, I do. There will always be people who
- work under the table
- evade police
- not get thier dog licensed
can't change human nature...BUT a tax or fee or some kind of monetary something on having an intact animal will effet the law-abiding citizens...
r you trying to drive me nutso?
cutnjump wrote:Usually no supply does not make the demand go away. It just makes the price of what is available go way up. Through the roof at times.
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was my earlier point on driving up the cost of trucking them...LOL.
When I wrote what you quoted I was writing of the taxes to breeders and owners.
LOVE HEATED DEBATES! especially if the seem to go somewhere!
sarmichka, hte debate isn't going anywhere, you don't make any sense. Big farms, like those who mass breed tbs, aqhas, aphas, arabs, and standardbreds aren't going to be hurt by a breeding tax.
Those who only breed for quality, maybe 2-3 horses a year or every other year will get hurt because they don't breed for money, they breed for their passion. Big farms can deal with higher taxes, but people who only breed for quality don't always have the extra dollars to pay some tax because their too busy making sure their horses are well cared for.
Give them a break. People who breed for quality don't normally make anything off the horses they sell anyways, or at least, not a living.
You need to study more economics.
Sarmichka-
r you trying to drive me nutso?
I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere... and I'm not talking about a rich psychic either LOL!
I agree with you on enforcement. If they would enforce the laws out there, then start working on tightening the noose on the folks mostly at the root of the problem, (or just let us strangle the little bastards and enjoy it) it would be a start.
From there we could only hope it could get better. No one solution is goig to fix everything, neither is it going to make everyone happy.
But they gotta step up and do something. Take a step in some direction, even a little one...
We can all see how well self regulation is working. Even outing them one or two each day here is making some progress at times.
Thank you Coopers fan girl. It is not the big breeders who will hurt. It is us small breeders who produce one or two at a time every couple years.
We will be the first ones to go. The BYB's may even make it through rounds 1 or 2 and maybe even toround 3 or 4, but the big production farms will churn out foals of high middle and low quality just like they do now.
We will no longer be able to buy a quality foal from a small farm, but the large farms will be able to sell a crappy foal or a cull for a handsome price if nothing else is available.
Small farms run by quality breeders will most likely throw in the towel and give up, rather than pay the fees to breed even every few years for only one or two foals.
I agree with some of the other posters here. The real asshats are the ones that keep breeding poor quality horses, BUT there are also some breeders that breed some nice animals but don't know when enough is enough! I am also concerned about the safety of the folks that out the KB, this could get a little dicey. Please be careful everyone that is involved.
Just curious and not that I would ever consider this, but is it illegal to slaughter a horse in the US that you own for your own consumption? Is there a law against taking it to a processing facility that handles deer, hogs, cows and etc?
I work for a vet and we have had many discussions about what I read here. I don't agree with everything but hey that's what makes the world go around and around and around. This blog keeps people thinking!
Good Job Fug
How do you preserve the quality small time breeders, get rid of the BYB, and induce the big time breeders to back off on their production numbers? The breed associations are not going to help, they have the my s**t doesn't stink attitude. At least with TB's you can't AI, but sheer numbers make up for it.
As much as I would like a licensing fee, tax, whatever, I certainly don't want to have to buy from the big time breeder du jour, happily cranking out what is currently fashionable vs. long term sound/sane. How can this be accomplished? I've thought of registration inspections but been informed they are crooked (I don't know but could see how that could be).
I can certainly see where where yearly licensing/taxing of breeding stock would induce people to breed to recapture the money just put out. So hummmm.....thinking by typing. The fees would have to be levied against offspring instead, which the buyer would assume, possibly at the time of licensing. How do European nations prevent overbreeding?
Just thoughts.
Lots of interesting commentary here - my thoughts:
On a fee for breeders:
I am against this because, as others have stated, it will only hurt the small and responsible breeder. BYB turning out mutt horses (which they don't bother to register) are also not going to license their horses or pay any fees. They don't with their dogs and cats - horses will be the same.
Also we should note that at least in California (and perhaps the whole country) the breeders of TB's DO pay taxes and fees on their breeding stock. All breeding stock must be identified, valued, taxed, and capitalized. So there is a tax - and yet I don't see that drastically reducing the number of reject yearlings and OTTBs being sent to slaughter.
And technically, if you are breeding over a certain number of horses a year in California you must declare it a business and pay an annual value tax (and capitalize) your breeding stock. So there ARE taxes but they really are not having an affect on horse numbers. Rather I would think they might have the opposite affect because if you are paying 1% a year on a $50,000 mare then a business person is going to want to get SOMETHING out of her. Meat baby covers the taxes.
On the subject of Government regulation of horse breeding:
Yes, its true that in Europe they have much more government regulation of horse breeding. But they also cull strictly and EAT their culls. And they have local knackers who will come out and humanely put down a horse at the horse's home and then take the body to a butcher shop to be processed for food. They don't seem to have a problem with the fact that breeding horses does not produce the desired foal 100% of the time. And if there is no market for a reject horse they seem to have no problem with sending it for food. I think that influences the perception that overall they have a higher level of quality than we do in the US.
And BTW - in Spain where the Military regulated horse breeding for more than 100 years they produced some of the finest horses in the world. And those that did not make the grade were eaten - plain and simple. Often times eaten by the same handlers and caretakers who raised them. So the government regulation forced very high standards but also limited choices for those horses that did not meet the cut. How would you feel if Uncle Sam said your colt was unworthy - and that he did not just have to be gelded but actually had to be shot? I don't think many Americans would stand for that level of govt control.
how 'bout postin' pictures of the folk that send their horses to the auction
only1fugly4me said...
Dang, Admin, at our house, I make the kids eat all the mistakes--broken sugar cookies, experimental tofu/vege dishes, burned chicken.
But that is a thought. BYB's must eat horses that do not conform.
Seriously, that is why I feel so desperate about his situation. I don't want the government to dictate how to solve this problem. If the gov has to do it, they might develop an advisory panel made of breed advocates, and guess what group will be left out. Small reputable breeders, who breed riding horses.
How would such a small group stand up against a large group that says HYPP h/h horses produced ideal stock (Not picking on a breed, it's just an example that is easy to come up with) and that will be the gold standard for conformation. Probably as far out example of control as anyone could imagine, but we all can see how things turned out when a very vocal group influenced the government recently. No thought about the consequences, just emotion used as fact.
My earlier post:
"...that it be illegal to cross US borders with slaughter bound horses after 4pm. Make them haul them in daylight hours so the entire public can "help" monitor what is going on. There is no reason that a horse has to be loaded up in the dark."
Catnjump's response:
"Sorry gotta disagree here too. In Phoenix and pretty much most of Aridzona it is still 100+ degrees at 10pm buring the summer. Today it is 81 and yesterday it was 82 degrees."
Catnjump made a good point. Living in eternal winter here in WI, I forget how warm it can get in the desert and in the south. It was a balmy 33 degrees here today and we still have 3 feet of snow piled everywhere. :)
I offer this amendment to my earlier suggestion:
"...that it be illegal to cross the US border INTO CANADA with slaughter horses after 4pm. Make them haul them..."
I assume most killers are not going to take their buys from AZ and ship them to Canada (unless I'm missing something). Would this eliminate all the times slaughter horses from the Midwest or East are shipped on hot days and suffer some effects? No.
On the flip side of the coin, horses might suffer just as much with panicked cuts, abrasions, broken limbs and head injuries when scared into double deckers in the dark of night. (OR as many cold weather issues in winter in the colder states, it's been minus 10+ regularly here at night this winter, then get on the road and consider wind chill factors).
Let's face it, the haulers don't care if a few horses die on these trips now...(look at the hauling slips from the previous FHOTD post where each had 1 DOA on their load). Put them on the roads in daylight where every Tom, Dick and Harry can see and things will change.
I leave it up to you, Catnjump to brainstorm a reasonable suggestion for the southern border to Mexico. *the gauntlet of challenge is thrown down*
The more thought I put into the "daylight haul" for slaughter bound horses, the more I think it could affect many other aspects of the process for the good via social pressures. Package the "daylight haul" to a piece of legislation offering stiffer penalties for the existing hauling laws that Anothermonday had noted are not being enforced, and we could affect change. Or at least more awareness.........
Just one response...
Fugly, i am all for the original posting of your blog. You were delightfully snarky, often right on target, and you had a goal--and it became our goal--to help EDUCATE" BYB's, not annihilate them.
Pictures can lead to serious repercussions for the people involved. As you quote, "Celebrities have it done, too,"...there's a difference, they have huge amounts of money for which to pay for protection.
The point is quite relevant that slaughter is a necessary evil--but people lying in order to get a horse to slaughter is not. However, that's no reason to put people's lives in serious danger. If you doubt your power to do that, go read some of the posts of your more zealous fans, and the stories of how some of these sociopathic killers get started. I can't agree with this one.
Amused;I just read your post,I haven't seen any real threats to KB on this post.Maybe a threat to put them out of business,which in my mind wouldn't be such a bad thing.These guys(or gals)are making big bucks on sheer misery.Some are buying from private parties under false pretenses ,this is low.Pardon me if I don't worry about Joe or anyone else publishing their photos.I don't think Libel or slander would apply here,I believe operating under false pretenses to obtain the property of another is against the law in some states at present.Pets are considered property under the law.I think it just may be time for these people to find a new line of work......I personally,don't want to see anymore horrible pictures of these animals in distress,if they are sick or old or dying they need humane euthanasia,not dragged across an auction floor or stuffed into a truck headed for a horrible death.We would not do this to our dogs and cats,people would not stand for it,not for one minute.
amused, I agree with you about education. In an ideal world, I could imagine some sort of certification you could receive to be a breeder. That certification could have certain benefits to both the breeder and the people who purchase horses from certified breeders. It wouldn't stop BYBs, but at least it wouldn't knock out the "good little guys" either who couldn't afford to breed under other suggested systems.
I think we should make a page that has pictures of all the bybs that are breeding the poor animals that go to these slaughter houses.
Norski-
Maybe the after 4pm ruling for the haulers going over the Northern border would work. That makes sense and would get the trailers SEEN. I think that is where you were going with this. For the northern states it might raise awareness. Awareness is good and often results in action.
In AZ the Southern border is much closer. We ship a ton of stuff that way and horses are no exception. With the heat here and in Texas the heat and humidity, daytime travel is not an option.
I agree many of the animals probably do suffer some array of injuries from being loaded at night. I do not know the favorable outcome answer to this one. In keeping with the 'best interest of the animals' in one regard, their 'best interests' are tossed aside, if not out the window completely, in many other regards.
I can only wonder the direction this will all go when one of the following things happen-
a) the legislation does not pass and horses are still going over the border to their deaths...
b) the legislation DOES pass, and now all the horses are trapped inside the US.
I'm not throwing anything down. Instead I am bringing it all UP for everyones consideration in hopes that some good alternatives come from it. Some of which I hope will actually be in the 'best interests' of the animals involved.
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