Thursday, February 28, 2008

Dealers who ship horses to kill: Let's have the names!

Joe over at TB Friends has been talking about putting up pictures of kill buyers on his blog so that people will be on the alert as those kill buyers have been going to homes pretending to be "a good home" for unwanted horses. They pick them up for free, and days later the horse is dying a horrible death in a Mexican slaughterhouse.

I think it is a great idea, but I don't know that Joe is actually going to do it.

Joe seems to be afraid of legal action and/or of upsetting/offending the hordes of children who read his blog. (Who as far as I am concerned, had better learn about the realities of life NOW before they get old enough to contribute to the irresponsible breeding/ownership problem).

Along the same lines...I have a friend who does a web site in L.A. where she takes better pictures of the South L.A. shelter dogs and cats and tries to help get them adopted. She also honestly indicates on the page if they are euthanized. I remember a few years ago, some parent had a fit about her site as their child had read it and gotten upset. My response was, lady, you are mad at the WRONG person. Get mad at the asshat who dumped that dog or cat! Get mad at the asshat whose inability to GET OFF THEIR DEAD ASS and spay/neuter created it. My God, in L.A., spay/neuter is FREE if you make less than $40,000. FREE! Don't get mad at the person who is trying to educate the public so that they will change their behavior. And if your kid is old enough to use the Internet unsupervised, she ought to be old enough to deal with realities like pets that die in the shelter because their owners were asshats. I digress, but honestly it's the same thing with Joe's blog. Saving horses from slaughter is what Joe does. If your kid isn't old enough to handle the fact that slaughter exists, she should not be reading Joe's blog. You are the parent - either set boundaries or don't expect the world to do it for you.

Anyway, let's chat today. Who are the known kill buyers in YOUR area? I've said before that I don't hate the KB's and I don't. They are the garbagemen - they are not the ones who put the horse out with the trash. However, sellers need to be making informed choices. When a KB comes to your doorstep and pretends to be interested in your horse for a riding horse, that is not cool. One day at Woodburn I was in line to pay and had to hear this girl telling one of KB's all about what kind of bit her horse liked, what he ate, etc. It was horrible. He told her he wouldn't have any trouble with him. No, I'm sure he didn't.

(Yes, I should have spoken up but the auctions are weird things. You will get your ass banned if you start coming and causing trouble or having hysterics, as others have learned. The auction is like being in enemy zones in a war...you really have to shut up and smile if you are going to rescue anything. If you haven't been there and done it, don't start with me.)

Here is a list of known kill buyers in Texas as of 2004.

In the Pacific Northwest, I know of Ole Oleson and Chuck Walker. Both of them also sell riding horses, so it is not a guarantee they will sell to slaughter, but if the horse fails to sell for riding or is unsound or unmarketable (mares with no papers tend to go straight to kill) that is where they go.

In Colorado, Charlie Carter is the big one.

Who else do you know about? Let's name names. You can post links to any other lists of who to watch out for, or posts on the Internet mentioning kill buyers. HTML works for posting links - here's how to use HTML to post a link. Joe talks about Manny Phelps in northern California...who else?

Sellers, especially those of you giving horses away for free or under $300, do a site check and get a contract. It is not that much extra work.

207 comments:

Arabians and Other ALiens said...

I don't know kill buyers in this area, bt I can get you a list of those who will market any horse to anyone, and lie about it, if that would help?

HorsePoor said...

Holy crap, in just six weeks, one guy put 687 horses through the slaughter house. That is an eye opener.

I don't know anything about KB's around here. I don't frequent the auction. Only been there once and I don't really want to go back. The Mexico, MO auction is pretty much a dumping ground for trash horses and a "kill" auction.

amanda said...

Joe is local in my area, and one of my friends has a horse from him.

I don't know any KB in our area, I depend on Joe for letting me know their names

PredatoryStump said...

You know what I find most telling on that link for the Texas kill-buyers...

The amount of QH's, followed by TB's.. followed by Paints...

Where I'm at.. in the north, I'm pretty damned sure that Standardbreds would figure in a good-sized column as well...

How many of those horses going to slaughter are culls from big farms?

miss shoer said...

Ronald P. Mariotti Owner- Auctioneer at the Enumclaw Sales Pavillion in WA. I have heard he does it. I'm sure he does owning the auction house. I've seen what he buys for $300 and less. He also has a group that stands in the corner and bids for him. I dont think they have paid more than $300 for a horse while I've been there. I had a bidding war with one of them until I bid $325! Not to mention, that horse has honestly been the best horse ever. He's the kind of horse you can put anyone on....like my beginner husband!

Natrlhorse said...

At Centennial auction yesterday (which can be viewed online every Wednesday) there were 28 horses that went through Charlie Carter bought 21 of them.

Charlie's bidder number is 315 and if the auctioneer calls "straight" the horse is for slaughter, if the auctioneer calls a pen # the horse is usually a resale prospect.

Other local meat buyers are:
839 which is Art Fabrizius
242 is Monte Clark

Here are yesterday's auction results:

-Dk chestnut star mare, 3yo started 860# $.17/lb
315- (meat) ($146.20)

-'93 splashy sorrel overo paint- #1090- $.40/lb
315- (resale) ($436)

-6102- sorrel mare- #1040- $.23/lb
315 (resale) ($239.20)

-#1265 gelding bay stripe 2 h socks- $.32/lb
315 (meat)($404)

-B/w paint mare 1986 #895- $.40/lb
877 (private buyer)($358)

-Chest blaze, gelding out of state no coggins #910-$.15/lb
315 (meat)($136.50)

-bay, tag 6010, 935#, no coggins- $.14/lb
315 (meat)($130.90)

-ch blaze 6009, filly 925# no coggins- $.16/lb
315 (meat)($148)

-colt by the head, ch blaze- $70
315 (meat) ($70)

-rose grey green broke no coggins #1245 $.32/lb
315 (resale)($398.40)

-007 filly sorrel no coggins, #1000- $.22/lb
315 (meat) ($220)

-Bay, snip no coggins (under 1000#)$.17/lb
315 (meat)

-2 yo sorrel colt, head, 8895- $100
315 (meat) ($100)

-2000 mare, #1245, bred?, ch blaze, no papers on
breeding, - $.31/lb
315 (resale)($385.95)

silver dapple paint mini stray/abandoned- $350
837 (private buyer)($350)

-lg gelding sorrel star, 16 yo, kidbroke #1055- $.17/lb
877 (private buyer)($179.35)

-coggins, 2008, gray mare, 20 yo, broodmare barren
#1190- $.25/lb
315 (meat)($297.50)

-#1065 gelding, chest star, Wy no coggins led in- $.19/lb
315 (meat) ($202.35)

-white BLM mare- #870- $.48/lb
877(private buyer)($417.60)

-sorrel , chrome no coggins - $.41/lb
877 (private buyer)(No wt)

-sorrel/flaxen gelding 14, broke, exp rider # 875 - $.31/lb
315 (resale) ($271.25)

-Palomino AQHA gelding, 1381, 2004, #960, 90 days riding, calm-$.32/lb
315 (resale)

-Chest 2006, mare, rub marks?, aqha papers, #1030- $.2?/lb
839 (meat) ($250ish)

-Bay mare, branded, '99 erg papers, #1040, $.24/lb 315 (resale)($249.60)

-chestnut star, #920, '05, aqha, branded, $.22/lb
315 (meat)($202.40)

-ch, blaze, #765, no papers, $.14/lb
315 (meat)($107.10)

-Buckskin, gelding 2004, no papers 5 rides, #985 $.27/lb
315 (resale) ($265.95)

-ch, 2005, #900, papers $.22/lb
839 (meat?)($198)

McFawn said...

Hey Fugs--check out the eerie flip side of FHOTD (really this is just to see if I can make a link)

the real fugs?

fuglyhorseoftheday said...

LOL yeah I'm getting so many search hits that someone bought the domain. It'll probably have a porn site on it next week!

Vicarious said...

I just did a quick internet search and came up with the names of two Canadian shippers, Scott Irvine and Ron Sebastian. I don't know if anyone has seen these before (I know I haven't), but the following links are two Livestock Receipts for these two guys. Notice how they list what condition the horses are in on the receipt.

Scott Irvine

Ron Sebastian

only1fugly4me said...
This post has been removed by the author.
LHCasino said...

Known Killer Buyers as posted on http://www.commonhorsesense.net/
Terry Saulters-Texas
Trent Ward-Texas
Mike McBarron-Texas
Bill Richardson-Texas
IW Ward-Texas
Leroy Baker-OH
Jeron Gold-MI
Fred Bauer-Oh
Landfair Brothers-OH
Ron Andio-OH
Josh McKay-WV
Don Nickerson-NY
Arlow Kiehl-NY
Charlie Carter-CO
Joe Simon-MN
Randy Musick-SD
Dennis Chavez-NM
Monte Clark
Dale Haley-IN
Jeff Smith-KS
Randy Smith-KS
Jason and Buck Ryan-KY
Jodie Ramey-KY
Anton Wald-LA
Richard Godbout-MN
Terry Lee Brooke-MO
Ole Olson-NV
Eggburt_OH
Jack Paluso-OR
Brian Moore-PA
Jack Reinert-SD
Dennis Smebakken-SD
Harriman-WA
Chuck Walker-WA
Ted Kerst-WA
Les and Jack Ryan-WA
George Baker-OK
Monzerat Munoz-TX
Manny Phelps-CA
Ryon Simon-MN
Danny Rice-KY
Don Wright-KY
_________________

justlittleolme said...

Now it's a law in Ca. that you must neuter or spay dogs and cats once they are 4 mos. At least that's a start. Too bad we can't pass something like that nationwide for the bad human breeding machines.

Sanders BUT not the COLONEL said...

Miss Shoer:"like my beginner husband!"


Miss Shoer is that like a starter house??
I had a beginner hubby then I updated to an intermediate to advanced model....

Kay said...

That is just what I was going to say Fugs. Someone had figured on getting a lot of hits on unrelated site. LOL

only1fugly4me said...

OMG! Natrlhorse, were any of the horses sold for meat, rode through?

If I ever auctioned my little fugly mare, she'd for sure go to kill. We are penny pinchers and have a real budget on paper and we stick to it. The amount we have budgeted for horses (2) is astronomical (my very nonhorsey husband will get his sainthood someday). Of course, our 3 cats have a huge budget, too. Despite the budget, we'd go outside of it to keep our horses. I can't imagine how people could let their horse sell to a killer.

I hope they send in all the AQHA papers, so they can be declared DEAD, and let them know where their final destination was.

I am not aware of any auctions in WY but Belle Fourche SD and Billings MT are frequented by many. I'll have to take a trip and see what's happening in those areas.

Kay said...

There is a small low end auction at DeWitt, IA twice a month. Years ago I used to go to them all the time and I knew the kill buyers but I haven't been for several years.

My friend says that there is no kill market here in N. IL since Cavel closed but I myself am not so sure.

nyxin said...

natrlhorse,
I am in CO too. Did you go the the sale? Or get the results from the site? I want to go to one to see what I might be able to save, but I don't want to go alone.
Have you ever bought one from a sale and if so what were the results?
email me sometime and maybe we can meet up at one of those.

kaliberstables@yahoo.com

HorseNoir said...

OMG! I know one of the people on the Texas list, and even sent a horse to him for training once. Thanks for posting this.

Debbye05 said...

I W Ward is the kill buyer in our area of Texas - He used to buy a lot of horses but has since slowed down - I was told that he tries out each horse and if it rides he resells it - I too have seen the unknowing owners tell what a great horse the now crippled mare/gelding is - How it needs this and that and how they want it to just have a great home- Only to see I W win the bid and it to go for slaughter - As Fugly says you can't really make a big scene or they ban you - Owners need to be educated - Don't take a crippled, skinny, lawn ornament to auction and expect someone else to do what you can't or won't do - Also don't bring in your skinny untrained unregistered fugly that you haven't fed in God knows how long and expect us to pay twice what is worth - That's a major pet peeve of mine - It's not worth $1000 just because YOU think it is - Yesterday I witnessed around 15 Paints go thru a cattle/horse auctin - They were black/white & sorrel/white broodmares, weanlings, and 1 stud - There were no bids because the owner wanted $1100 for the broodmares, $3500 for the weanlings and $7500 for the stud - PLEEZE - These horses where skinny, unkept and shouldn't have been breeding stock in the first place - Last I heard they were headed for another auction - Hope they survive!

miss shoer said...

"Sanders BUT not the COLONEL"- HaHa. I guess you could say that, but I don't plan on upgrading. He is my first husband and I plan on keeping it that way. But we will continue to upgrade the horses that he rides.

fuglyfuglyfugly said...

God. I've wanted to go to a sale for years but never had the real need to. I'm in MN and sick that the Simons are kill buyers. For years I innocently visited the Simon Arena for friends' AQHA shows and it never even occured to me that it would happen there. I'm a little sick now. And we're in a part of the US where a sort-of-okay horse'll go for at least 2k.

summerhorse said...

A lot of the kill buyers work multiple areas. There is a Baker who works the east coast not sure if it is a ken Baker or the Baker on the list. Carter works pretty much the entire middle of the country.

Does anyone save Joe's blogs? He listed most of them at various times but I don't save them. We esp. need to know the ones who pretend to be the good family who go to people's homes.

I think most low end horse auction house owners are kill buyers. Anything that doesn't resell that is shippable they toss on the next truck whomever it belongs to.

summerhorse said...
This post has been removed by the author.
BlueWillow said...

Since this is a public internet site, I will just say this:

In WV, there are *rumors* that Donald Ray Mullens and Bunk Dudding are kill buyers. They also resell horses.

Brokenarrow DJ said...

In Oklahoma/surrounding
George Baker (sons Corey, BJ, wife Toots)
Rodney Payne (owns/runs Tulsa horse sale)
Joe Simons
Don Smith
many more buy for each of the above!

BlueWillow said...

Hey, FHOTD:

This brings up an idea--I am considering going to a nearby auction on March 7th.

Could you do a post about how to conduct oneself so as to avoid banning, at one of these things.


Maybe also give some tips as to what to look for, how to decipher some of what is going on there?

Callie said...

There's still a kill market in N.Illinois.........More than you know. It sucks!

HorsePoor said...

Why wouldn't there be a kill market in N. IL? All they have to do is take them into Canada.

gunner408 said...

does anyone know of an Andy that I was told was a kill buyer, but may just be a dealer, in WA? Like a last name? Thanks!

gunner408 said...

I'm sorry, or in Oregon or the surrounding areas...

J.D said...

I used to know a few meat buyers in my area, but I've been out of the loop for years. There were a lot of people who used to sell horses for meat occasionally, but weren't what I'd call meat buyers, or "dealers"

I do have a couple of questions though..... what are these meat buyers getting for horses in Mexico? The price must be damn good to justify hauling from Minnesota (or anywhere but Texas) even if they haul an entire truck-load (Which appalls me)

My other question is likely to be a bit upsetting for some people, and goes along with the above question. Years ago, I was told that grey/white horses never went for meat... well, not for human consumption anyway. I was told they were "canned" as in dogfood. At that time, any grey/white horse that went through the auction usually went for far less than other horses bought by the meat buyers.Does this still hold true? I ask because of the grey mare in the auction results going for .25 lb.

As back then, it still appears that horses under 1000 lbs. are bringing less than those above.

Looking at the number of known buyers, and the amount of horses they buy/sell, it looks as if all the BYB, and ignorant owners are certainly providing a pretty good income for these guys. I'd sure like to know what they get for them in Mexico... I bet we'd all be surprised (and disgusted) by how much these guys make because of people's stupidity.

Perhaps if more people knew how much these guys make, they'd think twice about breeding fugly, useless horses.

J.D said...

I used to know a few meat buyers in my area, but I've been out of the loop for years. There were a lot of people who used to sell horses for meat occasionally, but weren't what I'd call meat buyers, or "dealers"

I do have a couple of questions though..... what are these meat buyers getting for horses in Mexico? The price must be damn good to justify hauling from Minnesota (or anywhere but Texas) even if they haul an entire truck-load (Which appalls me)

My other question is likely to be a bit upsetting for some people, and goes along with the above question. Years ago, I was told that grey/white horses never went for meat... well, not for human consumption anyway. I was told they were "canned" as in dogfood. At that time, any grey/white horse that went through the auction usually went for far less than other horses bought by the meat buyers.Does this still hold true? I ask because of the grey mare in the auction results going for .25 lb.

As back then, it still appears that horses under 1000 lbs. are bringing less than those above.

Looking at the number of known buyers, and the amount of horses they buy/sell, it looks as if all the BYB, and ignorant owners are certainly providing a pretty good income for these guys. I'd sure like to know what they get for them in Mexico... I bet we'd all be surprised (and disgusted) by how much these guys make because of people's stupidity.

Perhaps if more people knew how much these guys make, they'd think twice about breeding fugly, useless horses.

eighthoundz said...
This post has been removed by the author.
PredatoryStump said...
This post has been removed by the author.
eighthoundz said...

I'm familiar with Arlo Kiehl and Don Nickerson. Both are real shitbags.

4thehorses said...

I know there is also a woman who hangs with one of the kill buyers who attend Encumclaw. I just couldn't do it.

PredatoryStump said...

bluewillow

What part of WV are you in?

My father, inadvertently, purchased a yearling stud colt for 90 dollars at the Terra Alta sale..
He was run in as a resale by one of the WV horsedealers (dunno which one).. no coggins, nothing.

He's a nice colt, whoever had initially saled him .. they'd clipped his ears, muzzle, and fetlocks.. hell, they even put showsheen on him.
Someone also put a lot of handling on him..

We've been trying to figure out where he came from.

This is the colt(gelding now) next day after we got him home from the auction..

http://tinyurl.com/33mkz5


Don't mind the chain under his nose, the mares were hollering down over the hill and we weren't completely sure how well behaved this boy was.

fuglyhorseoftheday said...

>>Could you do a post about how to conduct oneself so as to avoid banning, at one of these things.<<

Don't wear your PETA t-shirt. :-)

No hysterics, no emotion. Look at horses like you're looking at SHOES. I don't even pet them much especially if the seller is around. Don't talk about rescue. If the seller jokes about shipping them or canning them, laugh. Act like one of the horses-are-property crowd. Agree with whatever he says, no matter how atrocious. You are there to save a horse, not stump for the end of slaughter. If you are cute or have big boobs, cleavage often makes them more amenable to letting you get a horse cheap. If you are showing interest in some old skinny horse, you're not a rescuer - you have little kids at home and that one looks like he won't kill anybody. NEVER COMMENT ON CONDITION. You can fix the condition when the horse is HOME WITH YOU. The kill buyers are often standing in the corner of the sale pen, and you'll see them have a pattern of picking up the lead-throughs or anything obviously lame. They buy a LOT of horses. You can buy a horse away from them if you miss it in the bidding but they will want an immediate profit.


>>Maybe also give some tips as to what to look for, how to decipher some of what is going on there?<<

Tranquilized horses look sleepy, geldings often hang their penises out. Avoid anything walking wobbly - either drugged to the gills or EPM. Horses who are all bit up have often been through a couple of sales and a couple of double-decker rides by the time you see them. Want to know that it's broke? Look for a lip tattoo. That won't tell you if it's sound but at least the lip tat - proof of track experience - means it's broke. Hip brands from ranches on older stock often mean there's good training there too but it's not a sure thing. It's more of a sure thing on geldings. Evaluate what you can, but you may not even be able to trot the horse out. If you can trot out, trot out on hard ground. At least you will see the lamenesses then. If you can't trot out, just do the best you can - look for heat/swelling in the legs. Bar shoes usually mean navicular. Don't buy at sales until you are sure you know what Cushing's or a chronically foundered hoof looks like. Pinfiring is meaningless in my experience - it shouldn't scare you. Old bowed tendons that are hard and cold generally do not impair use unless you're looking for a high performance horse and if you are, you shouldn't be looking at an auction.

I'm sure others will have tips.

OH, check the papers in the auction office! MAKE SURE THE MARKINGS MATCH! You'd be shocked how often horses are sold with someone else's papers.

CutNJump said...

BRAVO!

I know one guy who will sell to the killers, and does so on a regular basis. I call him Killer Bob. He is a horse trader.

Maria Jones of Smoketree Ranch in Apache Junction, AZ is another horse trader du jour, who frequently will buy and sell at PLA the local KB auction house.

Don't let the pictures on the link fool you, it is a dirty, filthy place full of pens filled with mud and slop. There is no grass only a few weeds here and there. No wood fences like pictured, cold metal bars instead, and the cows I have seen there don't look so well fed or happy.

Maria and Bob are friends or trader buddies. There used to be another auction nearby, that Maria and Bob also frequented with their horses and ponies.

Buy at one and sell at the other in hopes of making a buck.

FHOTD, I think also listing the auctions would be another good step in the right direction for folks looking for a horse, and where not to sell one as it may end up shipped over the border.

PredatoryStump said...

Bluewillow

Whereabouts in WV are you.. I'll hit the auction with you..

Grew up on a farm, been going to them all my life...
Hate them.

kuvaszfan said...

There is a list of kill buyers with addresses on this web site:
http://www.savedahorses.com/selloutsinamerica.htm

Brokenarrow DJ said...

/I'm familiar with Arlo Kiehl and Don Nickerson. Both are real shitbags./

I grew up in upstate NY and my In-laws owned a horse sale in the area. Arlo has hot checks out to most of the horse sales in the northeast! He even comes to Oklahoma hauling cattle to Bristow and heading home with horses.

Brokenarrow DJ said...

//My other question is likely to be a bit upsetting for some people, and goes along with the above question. Years ago, I was told that grey/white horses never went for meat... well, not for human consumption anyway. I was told they were "canned" as in dogfood. At that time, any grey/white horse that went through the auction usually went for far less than other horses bought by the meat buyers.Does this still hold true? I ask because of the grey mare in the auction results going for .25 lb.//


FIL was a kill buyer years ago and still won't buy a grey. Apparently they are more likely to have melanomas.

pinkandwhitepony said...

I've honestly never heard of any buyers based out of VA, except for one godawful rumor about a female kill buyer who sent horses to Mexico to pay for her show horses. As far as I know any horse shipped for meat has been sold to out of state people.

bluewillow - If you do go to an auction, take someone level headed with you who knows horses. They'll be able to help make sure you get something that's capable of what you want and will help keep you from buying something that's going to turn into a man eater once you feed it.

One other thing: if you're specifically looking to save a horse from slaughter check the reserve price on anything you want (normally they'll be able to tell you wherever you go to pay for the horse), kill buyers don't typically pay more than a few hundred so if the horse is reserved at over $500 or so its probably safe during the bidding.

NW_Horse_Person said...

I heard through the HORSE GRAPEVINE that Canada is no longer allowing Horses to cross the border from the U.S. for the purpose of slaughter. I was told this is a recent, is it true?

fetlock said...

I know a woman who gets the paper straight off the press and then runs around offering a "good home" to all the free animals. She sells the cats and dogs for experiments and anything else free gets sold off her place or goes to the next auction.

She gets loads of stuff with the free animals. One horse came with a bunch of corral panels.

I'm not saying her name because you can avoid her and people like her by not advertising animals free to good home in the paper.

CutNJump said...

I can only ask...

If the horses are drugged, lame, diseased and carrying GAWD knows what internal infestations, how much of the meat is actually salvagable/useable?

I know many of the drugs have a estimated length of time to clear the system, but untreated diseases and infestations must carry with them some risk of toxins to whatever eats the meat from the carrier animal.

Isn't this why such the fuss over using antibiotics in meat and dairy cattle, that it might transfer over to the food chain through the milk or meat?

Somehow I doubt the slaughter houses are waiting any set length of time for anything to clear a horses system whether they are using the horse for steaks or dog food.

If they are doing this with horses it is unimaginable what else makes it through in cattle, hogs, sheep poultry and other animals raised for consumption.

PredatoryStump said...

cutnjump

Exactly.
There is a reason why ground meat is so cheap.

fuglyhorseoftheday said...

Absolutely. After all, how much do we shove into our horses that clearly is marked not for use in animals intended for food?

Kelli said...

In NJ, I know there's a killer buyer at Camelot Auction in Cranbury (every Wednesday night). I don't have a name for the killer buyer but I believe the bidding number is 10.

Auction owner/horse dealer Frank Carper doesn't buy horses expressly to sell them to KB but he will. In the past couple of weeks everything has been going for a few hundred and a lot end up in the kill pen. :( I've bought three horses from this sale for 800, 700, and 100. Respectively, they were: pretty little APHA reg ex-broodmare (broke her once I got her), dead broke appendix gelding that anyone can have fun riding (last winter and no one was bidding on this poor guy), and a small pinto pony mare that I started and resold to a man for his niece with first right of refusal.

Does anyone have names of KBs and dirty rotten horse dealers that visit NJ auctions?

Debbye05 said...

Things I've learned over the years:

If a trader/dealer is selling it thru the ring then something is wrong with it - Shoes mean nothing - They drug and shoe them to fool you into thinking it's been ridden - If it's ridden only at a walk but is gentle, gentle, gentle - It's lame - Horses seldom buck in the confusion of the ring - Watch out when you get them home - The age on a Coggins test isn't always right - Some vets/techs put what you tell them to - If you see more then one glue spot on the horse and different tag numbers written on the Coggins test then it's been bought and sold a lot - There's a reason - Beware!

CutNJump said...

PredatoryStump said...
>cutnjump

Exactly.
There is a reason why ground meat is so cheap.<


fuglyhorseoftheday said...
>Absolutely. After all, how much do we shove into our horses that clearly is marked not for use in animals intended for food?<


I can't imagine anyone dumping a lame but buted to the gils horse at the acution and disclosing the info to the KB after the sale. Yeah, THAT'S gonna happen anytime soon! *eyeroll*

I guess if the horse is in a holding pen long enough everything clears, but seriously I doubt the slaughterhouses are drug testing anything or verfiying health certs or missing coggins paperwork. Especially on your typical BY bred, half-batshit, wild, nuerotic, unhandled yearling, they bought for $50 last week... Who will most likely be the first one loaded on the double decker.

Not gonna waste the few $$ on that to ensure anyones safety...

Nemrac1416 said...

Believe it or not I agree with slaughter, but that is my biggest problem with it. If you want to raise horses for meat do it right like cattle, drug withdrawl times, etc. I don't understand why its not more of a problem.

"Bluewillow" are you going to the Unadilla auction. It is march 7th. If so I hope to see you there.

Nemrac1416 said...

I think the KB there usually always wears a green jacket, and he sits right up front.

EquineAddiction said...

I was going to tell you about the local KB here in Southern CA named Slim Hart. He also sells riding horse and brands them all with a heart on their shoulder. I did a web search for info. on him and found this:

"...in the matter of "Slim" Hart


Meanwhile, back at the ranch, it's business as usual as alleged in a recent HorseAid representative's field report. The representative traced a pair of sorrel mares deemed to be good rescue prospects to "Slim" Hart's ranch in Corona (California). "Mr. Hart", she explained, "is a heavy buyer of slaughter horses from Mike's Auction (in Mira Loma, California)." At the Hart Ranch the representative observed "A bay mare with a broken leg. She had bones protruding from the skin through a hole about the size of a grapefruit. Mr. Hart was hitting the horse on the rear to get her to move toward an open trailer. The mare took a few steps, got fairly close to the trailer, then collapsed. Mr. Hart and two other people tried to get her up without success. At that point," the representative continued, "I asked Mr. Hart if I could purchase the mare and get a veterinarian to put her down. He said no." The mare was eventually dragged aboard the truck at the end of a rope, pulled by another truck, and hauled to her death at Corona Cattle Co. Based on the HorseAid representative's deposition, the Pomona Humane Society later cited Hart and a female assistant for cruelty.

-- Animal People, Vol. IV, No. 10, excerpted from an article written by Merritt Clifton

Felony Animal Cruelty charges against "Slim" Hart were "plea bargained" down to a misdemeanor. He pleaded guilty to Code 597O "Equine Humane Transport", and was fined $300.00 (which is less then the profit he realized on the slaughter bound horse he was convicted of abusing!). This took place on March 1, 1996. Case No. 53323, Corona court. The court did not even have the courtesy to give any of the complainants notice that the case was going to be heard on that date (on January 31st, the preliminary hearing was continued for 60 days, but was "suddenly" moved up to March 1st). This was a slap in the face to all of us that care about the welfare of horses and ponies, and is again just another example (in a very long list of examples) of ineffectual court actions involving heinous horse abuse and cruelty cases.

Meanwhile, back at the Hart ranch, it is "business as usual" for Slim Hart..."

BuckdOff said...

I read the list of buyers in Texas alone,they are legion.As someone who had no idea this occurred until I started reading this blog,I'm like wicked depressed. I don't know of any KB here,but I'll bet they exist.As far as going to people's houses,that's just so low,but, I wonder if its a crime,they are misrepresenting themselves and acting under false pretenses.Any attorneys here? I know when we moved to this house,we would always see large horse carriers stopping at the intersection near us on their way to the highway,I'm talking about numerous times,day and night. These trucks were always empty and I never thought twice about it.I haven't seen them at all lately,but saw all of the transport trucks parked in a lot well off the street.I 'll bet they have something to do with slaughter.Anyway,all of your hard work on this issue has really opened my eyes,Fugly,(I feel creepy referring to you that way)I am really telling everyone I know about this stuff.Please continue to let us know how to help here.You are a better person than I for not hating these KBs.I can honestly say I do hate them....

Crazy3dayer said...

Well I've been to an auction in the North Montgomery Co. area and it's gotten so much worse. The 1st time I went i bought 3 horses from a "trader" named Chris, he's younger mustache good looking, sometimes he has a nice looking brunette w/him. He buys horses from the Dallas auction on Friday and sells them there on Saturday. i've seen horses go into the ring that were aced all to hell, I've seen mares go in w/DAY OLD foals at thier sides. I've seen the skin and bones ridden in. the worse thing I saw was a gentleman who had YEARLINGS that had strangles, were skin and bones and his 15 yr old son was riding them into the ring. Almost EVERYONE of them went to a "family" home.
The last time I went was right after the TX houses closed. I had to leave or be kicked out. I was crying the whole way home. Someone had dumped 4 blind broodmares, there was another blind horse w/it's sighted buddy that they seperated, both horse were hysterical. The one that almost got me kicked out was an old white horse that had scalped itself. It had blood running down it's face and down it's legs. Numerous people got auction owners and horse owner and they both said it was an "old" injury.
It was disgusting and I know I'm going to be lambasted but if the TX slaughterhouses were still open those poor animals wouldn't have been dragged all over the state and would have been put out of their misery. Oh..before you all jump on me...I've worked in the meat industry. It's not as bad as it is made out to be. Mexico is..the US was NOT. I don't know what the answer is-but dragging these animals across the US is not. The last I'd heard a full load of horses to Canada netted 20K.

kuvaszfan said...

"You are a better person than I for not hating these KBs.I can honestly say I do hate them...."

I hate the people that make it possible.

Without people selling at auction, there couldn't be any KB buying.


So the French get to eat expensive contaminated meat. Whoopdeedoo.

Lost in NV said...

Northern Nevada,
Fallon,
Buster Quillin
Shelly Quillin

This is who Shirley (FOB) gets her rescues from.

HorsePoor said...

That's what I don't get, the contamination factor. I guess Asians and French people don't understand what's going on with these horses? Everything I read about slaughter stresses the fact that lame, sick, drugged, etc. horses are routinely sold to KB's, put on feedlots in overcrowded pens, thereby spreading any infectious diseases, and then shipped off to slaughter. Yuck. I guess cooking would kill alot of the contaminants, but YUCK. Maybe being in the feedlot for a few weeks or months would allow some infections to run their courses?

I agree, it's not the KB's I have a big problem with, it's the people who make this industry possible and profitable I have a problem with. If irresponsible assholes weren't breeding everything with an orifice and uncaring, selfish assholes didn't dump ol' Sparky at the sale, there wouldn't be a need for KB's.

To clarify, I do have a problem with KB's who scour ads for free horses and schnooker horse owners by saying ol' Sparky will have a forever home giving rides to little Susie and Johnny. That's evil.

BuckdOff said...

After all the publicity here about the abuse and torture of cattle at one slaughter house,I don't remember which one,and the video,all over T.V. here,my friends and I aren't eating beef .There is a large recall,and we aren't even talking about drugging yet either.As for free animals,isn't that how some of the labs used to get their animals? It used to be all over the news at one point.These guys would even go into shelters and pretend to adopt,then sell the poor animal for experimental purposes.BOX SEATS IN HELL !!! Anyway,one of the books I read recently?"French Women Don't Get Fat" I think we know why.

Adrienne said...

Probably been mentioned, but I should add:

North Texas but I saw him in Louisiana.

Mike McBarron

Adrienne said...

As far as the lab animals thing.

I actually interviewed to work at one of the largest animal testing companies in the world. (I know, I know, special place in hell, but their benefits were amazing. They didn't hire me anyway).

All of their animals are SPECIFICALLY bred for testing. This is probably a reasonably new development, but it makes sense. Testing is best done on genetically similar animals who health history has been recorded.

Kricket said...

Only 1 Fugly, mentioned sending in the papers so that the breed (AQHA) knows the horse is dead and how it went (ie to the killers)

Now why would they do that, when you can hand the papers over to your buddy the horse trader and he can then "register" that black horse he has in his pen! And make a few extra bucks buy putting papers on a grade horse and shaving a few years (or more) off that horse he has at home.

This happens regularly at sales - If you are buying a "papered" horse at an auction, be sure to look closedly at the markings and at least have a general idea on how to mouth a horse!

K

BuckdOff said...

I,m sorry,but I still do hate them!!and the people who brought them to the auction house,and the people who bred fugly horses,or refuse to do the right thing when their poor horse who has given them years of enjoyment,just doesn't suit their purposes any more.What do they think is going to happen to the poor thing? Add to this list Hoarders,even if they are insane.I really don't think I'm going to Heaven anyway,so yeah,I can hate.

Allison said...

Horses shipped for meat have a mandatory 30-day detox period or they won't get across the border into Canada. Don't know about Mexico, I would imagine they don't care much.

Once the horse arrives to begin the 30-day detox, it is considered a food animal and will recieve zero vet care. So if there is infected lesions, lameness or other ailments the horse must live with it and travel with it until its death.

optimistic said...

It is very interesting to read all of the comments here. Some are correct and some are quite incorrect. I am a female, in the horse business and i know almost all of the "killer buyers" as you are calling them. Most are my friends to some extent because bridges can't be completely burnt. But the fact is, that none of them buy killers for a "living" The truth of the matter is, that there really isn't that much money in it for the actual middle man-- the buyer. He makes a small commission, sometimes per horse, sometimes per hundred weight. Smaller than you would think. I think most of them are just after a quick buck, and some of the big ones are truthfully addicted, like gambling. buying another horse or the most horses is an ego thing. The other fact is that most of them buy for several main buyers, there is definitely a heirarchy and there are a handful who are the kings and control the market for the others.
The truth about the horses is that it doesn't matter what is in them (meds or hormones, etc.) all the meat gets used. I've heard the comment about a hematoma-- pudding for desert. yuck! a young horse hangs (carcass after hiding and gutting) better than an old horse. #1s are always worth more, generally 1200# pounds or more. The canadians like drafts and fat ponies because they market a different kind of meat. Marbled and fattier. Japanese delicacy.
For the record, i am completely ANTI-SLAUGHTER. If any of you go to the bigger horse sales you have seen me, whether you know it or not. I make my feelings known to the auctioneers, ringmen, buyers (including killer buyers) and everyone who will listen. I have the experience and knowledge to get at least some respect from them all. And i have heard from their very mouths that they wish this would all be over with and they wouldn't have to deal with it anymore........they mostly sell riders and breeding stock and don't make enough sometimes to put up with the slaughter headache.
As for the person's comments about buying a horse from a dealer... well it is not true that if a dealer has a horse at a sale that there is something wrong with it. Just ask the right questions. The fact is that most dealers DO know what is wrong with the horse, whereas Joe Blow thinks Blackie is perfect and it might be the biggest rankest lamest horse in the bunch. I sell horses at auction and will tell you that i am completely honest, and have references and many many return buyers to back me up. Just find yourself the right dealer.
I seriously could give you some hair raising stories about slaughter buyers, but there is not enough space. But to make what i am saying a bit more legitimate, i will tell you... I have been to the slaughter plants, more than once. I have seen the horses loaded, unloaded, killed, throat cut, beheaded, hided, front legs cut off (so they won't drag on the conveyer)(and for those who think all the horses deserve to be there, well a lot of those front legs have shoes? i don't get it, how did it get to that point,that they are being killed) beheaded, then hung and made into cuts. I have seen it, i don't believe in it.
Someone said to me this weekend..horses are commodoties and livestock. Well, when i was a little girl i didn't dream every day of riding a commodity or a cow!
I really could go on and on.

Allison said...

http://www.tlranch.com/index.htm

They are listed as dropping off 4 horses at Bel-Tex; a paint and 3 QH's.

BuckdOff said...

As far as the Asian and European diet,no offense intended to either,but they eat all manner of awful things,Whales come to mind,(that's another blog) do you really think they know or care about disease or drugs entering the mix? Actually,everyone cared about the Mad Cow thing,and people were dying from infected poultry.MAYBE we should tell them...."Why American Women Don't Eat Horses" will be the title of my book.Just have to find a publisher.....

BuckdOff said...

Optimistic,With all due respect,I really mean it,I could never get any of the carnage you just described out of my head,and I mean EVER. You know what? I can get through an autopsy,and go right out to lunch afterwards.There is a GOOD reason for the autopsy,as far as the slaughter of horses,Hell no,I'm not buying it.If the people overseas want to eat horses,I think its Hella GROSS, but let them eat their own.There are still enough ways to make money in the U.S.A.We found them when the IT market bottomed out here in 2002.I think you are wicked brave to comment on this blog and as I said I respect your opinions,but I could not associate with these buyers.

sarmichka said...

bluewillow wrote:Could you do a post about how to conduct oneself so as to avoid banning, at one of these things

*****************

Fantastic Idea!
Not for me personally, not now anyway...will be good to print and keep for future. But for those of you who want to/can save them NOW.

PLEASE Fug? Maybe a guest blog from someone?

Shindorae said...

Hi there! I'm new here, but it's great to see that you share many of the same ideas about horses that I do.

It's nice to see a list of kill buyers. Can we get a list of vets that will do a cheap gelding, too? The one around the corner from me charges a minimum of $300.

sarmichka said...

doh!
Just read Fugly's response/post...thanks..and sorry.
:}

DJL said...

I have been out of the rescue loop here in Southern California for many years.

Back in the 1990's the two major killer buyers were Slim Hart and Leonard Grenier.

What was really bizarre was that you would go to Leonards and at the front of the ranch were the pens of horses bound for sluaghter.

Up top was she show barn with Quarter horses that were there to be shown and trained. How people drove by the kill pens up to see their horses was beyond me.

Not sure if either of these folks are still in the business.

nyxin said...

I have wondered for a long time if horses that have been wormed, shots given, drugs for various things-- if they did end up as food. I am sure that sounds naive, but on every label for everything it always says "Not to be used on animals intended to be food"
Obviously this is not even cared about upon the shipping of the meat right?
Gross

So here is a question...
I know that if people got WAY MORE SERIOUS about responsible breeding and therefore the population of unwanted horses went way down it would lead to less being slaughtered. However, wouldn't there always be a market for this? And if not, what would happen to all the unwanted horses? We see what the closure of the US plants have done, would the back lash be bigger or would Europe start horse farms like cattle farms and to what we do to the cows? Or do they do that now?

OT
I stopped eating beef too. I saw Fast Food Nation and that is the plant that all the trouble has been at recently and I am just done.

sarmichka said...

I live in Buffalo NY and work by the Canadian Boarder. I see double deckers almost every week passing through the boarder...I always drive by and try to peer in...most times I see Black and white hides (cows I guess) or pigs never would have thought to even LOOK before finding this site!

But half the time I have no idea what's in them, can't see through the slats.

Kay said...

Callie said...
There's still a kill market in N.Illinois.........More than you know. It sucks!


That doesn't surprise me in the least. I think my friend had some smoke blown up her butt. She was told by a guy that runs a sale that the kill buyers don't operate here anymore because they can't make any money. He also told her that there was a $150 per horse surcharge put on the horses that are shipped to Canada or Mexico. I myself asked around and can't find any information on it. But she really trusts this guy. Believe me I wouldn't trust him around a glass corner.

CutNJump said...

Optimistic, you post a grand and enlightening view of the industry, that many of us may never wish to see or be a part of firsthand. Thank you!

As for what folks around the world eat, what I might find disgusting and gross, someone else might thoroughly enjoy and look forward to eating every day. It works both ways and to each their own.

Sushi anyone? Clams? Veal? Hot Dogs? Hamburgers? Some folks love this stuff, others won't touch it. Same with just about everything else anyone in the world has eaten. For every one thing one of us won't touch, there are probably 5 people who would scarf it down in an instant.

I can't stand tomatoes or cauliflower, but a good number of people love them both. I can say I have tried both items fresh, steamed, cooked, stewed, with or without sauces. I gave them a fair shot and still don't like them.

I work with a whole bunch of folks from Mexico and was offered BURRO one day. I had to pass, but they were chowing down on it like vultures on road kill.

Some countries eat dogs, as horrifying as some of us find that. Think of how well stocked their freezers would be from the puppymillers in the US. They could pick up a months worth of meat at the local pound on any given weekday. I bet they would go for the bigger breeds too.

Anthony Bourdain anyone? Or the other guy who eats weird foods? I can't remember his name but the ads show him eating all sorts of stuff I wouldn't.

Makes you stop to think about what goes into the food you buy on the local grocery store shelf. Unless you grow it, raise it, or make it from scratch like grandma used to, you really don't know...

It sucks that there is even a 'market' for horses on a plate, or that the KB people have the 'jobs' they do to put them there, but someone has to clean up the mess from everyone waving their "I do it because I can" banners.

It's the sad truth of the whole matter and the horse industry as it is.

sarmichka said...

Sorry OT

buckdoff wrote: I'm like wicked depressed"

*********************

Bostonian?
Born and raised Bostonian myself got "shipped" to Buffalo blech!

I imagine there are KB's in NE. So close to the boarder and Europe. Just a hop across the pond!

Anyone know for sure?
Eastern Canadian Slaughter Houses?

Zhenya said...

cutnjump -

re: dog meat eating ...... it's a huge deal in china & korea, and yes, they like the bigger breeds. i lived in shanghai for a few years and once had dog stew .... didn't know it was dog meat until afterward, but ick! (although i have to say, it didn't taste bad.) there was a big scandal when i was there about a company importing st. bernards as "pets" and using them for meat. yuck

and i brought home this little souvenier when i left the country ..... so bad, but so hilarious:

http://wthella.blogspot.com/2008/02/confucius-say-taste-great.html

Titania said...

In Western Pennsylvania, outside of Cranberry, McNichols are/were the kill buyers. They also did resale. I had the old man show up at my house pretending to be looking for a saddle horse, when I had a saddlebred for sale. I didn't know who he was, but something sent the hairs up on the back of my neck and I sent him packing. Found out later that he was the notorious McNichol. He gave me a differnt name when he answered my add.

sarmichka said...

Adreinne wrote:All of their animals are SPECIFICALLY bred for testing. This is probably a reasonably new development, but it makes sense. Testing is best done on genetically similar animals who health history has been recorded.

*********************

I would imagine in some cases this is true, if they are testing something medical, but cosmetic testing...they don't give a flying fuck where they are getting them from.

CutNJump said...

Nyxin- Good question! Where does the foreign markets get the rest of their meat? It doesn't ALL come from the us does it? If not, do they have farms where the horses are raised for consumption?

HorsePoor said...

Yes, there are farms in Europe that raise horses for meat.

HorsePoor said...

If foreigners want to eat horse meat then they should eat their own horses. Why are we supplying it to them?

horsesandhounds said...

Anyone letting a horse go under $500, may feel free to use our adoption contract as a guide. Remove our names and change what ever you like, somethings like vaccines and shelter required are different in each state...Standardbreds Starting A New Career Adoption Contract

sarmichka said...

cutnjump, your post made me think...Hindu people revere the cow, I wonder if there isn't a blog or a goup over there discussing the very same thing about us because we slughter cattle?

interesting POV

CutNJump said...

sarmichka said...
Adreinne wrote:All of their animals are SPECIFICALLY bred for testing. This is probably a reasonably new development, but it makes sense. Testing is best done on genetically similar animals who health history has been recorded.

*********************

I would imagine in some cases this is true, if they are testing something medical, but cosmetic testing...they don't give a flying fuck where they are getting them from.


There is a monkey farm here where they raise a good number of primates. It is along the south bnk of the Salt River around Greenfield Road for anyone familiar with the east valley. They raise them for testing labs, and when we rode up the river and past it you could hear those things screaming like no tomorrow. They had barbed wire, cameras, no tresspassing signs, dogs and all sorts of crap to keep anyone who knew it was there- OUT!

Not many people knew it exisited or what they did. Those apes screaming could unsettle a lot of otherwise trustworthy trail horses though.

sarmichka said...

slAughter...oops

CutNJump said...

sarmichka: that would be interesting reading if they did. I'm sure their posters would be just as passionate.

I happen to like Jersey's and Gurnsey's. Something about those big ol' eyes.

Hubby is thinking of buying cows to use for cutting practice. They will most likely all have names, like Steve, Jim, Pete, Roy, Mark, Richard... and although we do eat meat, they will all be safe.

I couldn't stand the thought of raising one and eating it. Once it is a roast or a chop, it's all pretty clinical.

sarmichka said...

Argh! CutNJump...the monkey "farm" is going to give me nightmares...I can just imagine what those poor things are "living" through!

I tear up at the Sara McLaughlin ads for the ASPCA...I CAN'T watch PETA ads...I just start crying!

To see poor animals face such horrid things when WE are the one who put them there! HUMANs do such horrid things to animals...

winterwonderland said...

Joe and Jim Simon from MN are really big into it. You go by their place in Lakeville and see the beautiful hills full of kill horses. Really sad. He has a lot of people networking for him all over the country, and has a ranch/holdover facility in OK. Does anyone know what the benefit of hauling to Mexico vs. Canada is? From Minnesota? He brings all his to Mexico after a 10 day layover in OK.

He also deals in riding horses and very high end show horses (AQHA/APHA of course!)

hollypossum said...

Ok I was watching RFD again In the Company of Horses or Horse Babies?they appear to be interchangeable? She was interviewing some one from I want to say Shiloh horse rescue ,who said The King Ranch ships hundreds of under two year olds straight to slaughter..every year! The inference was they're breeding horses for the meat industry! You have to remember that the shows host is pro slaughter, I'm not exactly sure who she is maybe someone who's more into horsey who's who than I am would know. I've been thinking about the number of pregnant mares who go to slaughter and something that I've been hearing about which is fetal animals being a valuable delicacy in Asian countries. They call it kutie pie. The rescue lady also said that 80% of her rescues are quarter horses and that they are the only registry without a breed rescue. She was of the opinion that bybs are only a fraction of the horses that end up at slaughter and thought that the racing industry was the biggest contributor

CutNJump said...

sarmichka- you will also be thrilled to no end to hear Chandler, Az is getting some big lab here that does animal testing.

I can look back through my 1300+ emails stuffing my inbox (I gotts to go through that one of these days...) and find out the name and proposed site location. But I guess even Paul McCartney was in town to protest the whole thing.

ChiliChihuahua said...

FHOTD - I have been reading your blog virtually since it's inception however I rarely post. I've learned a great deal about conformation from you, and I'm hoping that when the day comes that I have the resources to rescue a slaughter bound horse I'll be able to use my 'conformation 101' knowledge to select the right horse to suit my needs. Since I know you live somewhere near me (I live in Pierce County), I'd love to accompany you sometime to the Enumclaw auction. I don't quite have 'the eye' yet, but I'm getting better at spotting conformation defaults. I'd love to learn more from you first hand and what better place than the auction!? Let me know what you think - my personal email is macderj@yahoo.com. P.S. I would have sent this to your email address, but I know you're in inundated with emails!

austriancurls said...

catnjump:

Like in America, many top breeders over-breed here in order to produce high-quality horses. Many of the rest that do not turn out that great are sent to Italy :(. Italians make salami out of them.

Overbreeding in Europe is much less than in America. The reasons are that the animal industry is strictly controlled. Every cow, horse, chicken is registered with the the town hall government vet. It's data comes in an EU databank. Every horse has a "Horse Passport". Horses cannot be transported without one. And, the animal control people react pretty fast when something is wrong. Of course, countries here are much smaller so it is probably easier to keep a overview of it all.

That said, there are illegal transports the run through the country from Holland to Italy. An accident of a truck carrying about 40 shetlands made a scandal. So, the same things happen here too, just on a smaller scale.

I think the reason why imported horse meat is so in demand is because of the exchange rate is so good. Right now the Dollar/Euro rate is 1.5. It is extremely cheap to import anything from America at the moment.

And, the controls are stricter here regarding horse meat. You are not allowed to process the horse if it has had drugs of any kind. By importing the meat, it is already processed and harder to follow the chain of events. The authorities may take random probes to test the meat, but if something shows up, it isn't someone on this side whose butt is on the line.

The italian side of things is in general mafia run, so once it's over the boarder that's a different story.

sarmichka said...

CutNjump, sorry to read your state is getting such a hell hole...this is why I ALWAYS look for organic/no animal testing/vegitarian/vegan/cage-free products...I will NOT support such places!
Please do tell, WHO is running it so I can boycott them?

BuckdOff said...

Sarmichka:You're right,suburbs outside of Boston.I went to Buffalo years ago,when my then boyfriend got a job there after college.It was nice,but even colder than here.Cutnjump:I know they eat dogs and stuff over there.I think it's gross but we don't have to supply them.Let them eat their own dogs and horses.We are supplying everyone with just about everything else.And (big surprise)I'm not in favor of animal testing or most other experimental use.

Maxwell's Mom said...

Does anyone have any information about the Cookeville, TN horse auction or any of the other middle TN auctions? I would like to know if TWH are mostly run through or if other breeds are represented.

BuckdOff said...

I think most people in this country would run pretty far,pretty fast,if they were served up a horse or dog steak on a plate.I continue to believe most Americans think because the U.S. slaughter houses are not taking horses that horses are now safe.We love animals here,I think for the most part we treat them well.

A5ftFury said...

How about we post pictures and names of trainers who actively abuse and beat their horses at home and on the show grounds?

Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said...

Blogger PredatoryStump said...
"You know what I find most telling on that link for the Texas kill-buyers...

The amount of QH's, followed by TB's.. followed by Paints...

Where I'm at.. in the north, I'm pretty damned sure that Standardbreds would figure in a good-sized column as well...

How many of those horses going to slaughter are culls from big farms?"

The way the slaughter houses report the breeds of horses slaughtered is to ask the buyer what kind of horse they are. So any nice and fat brown, sorrel,dun, buckskin, palomino, or bay horse is listed as a QH, because they are the highest grade. Most of the meat is on the neck and hind quarters of a horse. Any fat horse with big hips and a big neck will be listed as a QH in the kill buyers attempt to cash them into bigger bucks There is NO verification process at work. Those standardbreds are usually listed as QH, as well as EVERYTHING solid colored that is not obviously Arabian, Draft or spotted. The spotted horses are listed as "paint" but none of the horses are required to have registration papers so they can be anything really.

J Kane said...

If foreigners want to eat horse meat then they should eat their own horses. Why are we supplying it to them?

It always amazed me it is someone always makes a comment along these lines, that it is someone elses fault that horses are going to the KB.
The truth is we are a THROW AWAY society.
If is broken, throw it away; if it is the wrong colour, throw it away; I'm moving, throw it away. People do not give a fuck, they do not want to take responsiblity for the animal they bring into the world, or bought at the store.
Hell you should be thanking the people that eat this meat, otherwise the kill piles would be huge.
Shit look at the dogs and cats dumped on the side of the road when they get inconvenient.
Hell, put ole Buffy down when he is 17 and thin, don't pawn the problem off on someone else because you can't bear to see him be humanely destroyed. Hell, we are going to live forever,don't you know? We don't need a reminder of our own mortality by watching an animal die safely at home instead we send them off to die in terror at a plant.
Instead of blaming the KB, the BYBs, the truckers, the people that slaughter, the people that eat it, put the blame on a society that only thinks of its own comfort and convenience.
Hell, if the slaughter plants were located in central areas that the animals could be trucked to humanely, euthanized humanely what difference is it where the carcass goes?

AlaskanFugly said...

Catnjump, if you don't mind me asking but where in AZ are you?

I just moved away from Tonto Basin (near Payson) a year ago and used to go to PLA and would sometimes break down and buy horses that were either skinny or had severe navicular, one TB mare I bought had blown out her knees and guess what, she was bred, I paid a total of $75 bucks for her. She was also
papered and I later found out she had won over 100,000 dollars on the track.

They were so far down hill the kindest thing was to put them down, Dr. Justice knew me pretty well, I'd call and say I just came back from PLA, and he'd come and give them "The Shot" most of the time he'd do it for free.

Some could be saved, but most I bought so that they could go over the rainbow bridge where they would no longer be in pain.

driftersmom said...

In southern IN, watch out for a Matt Gamble. Don't know for an absolute fact if he buys for slaughter because I try my damndest to stay away from auctions and from him but I've heard things.

I do know for a fact he's not above selling someone a "kid-broke" horse that would indeed leave your kid broken. Beware selling to or buying from him.

AlaskanFugly said...

just wanted to add that I never put a horse in the sale or went there to buy my next "champion" I would go to see what was being run though and try to help where I could!

fuglyfuglyfugly said...

winterwonderland--that's what my shock came from. I've only been exposed to the Simons' high-end business. I guess I never interacted with the low-end auctions before.

BuckdOff said...

J.Kane:My world is not disposable,it's humane.My pets are always someone's discards.Because some people treat everything as disposable doesn't make it right,and HELL NO,I don't have to like it or go along.So,belittle away,I will never subscribe to such jaded views. If you want to,believe me,I respect your right to do so.

HoldThe Rail said...

Kelli...
Here are a few in the NJ area: New Holland and Camelot Auctions
Arlow Kiehl- totally despicable
Frank Carper- as well as his son David Carper
Kevin Nickerson
Shawn White

J.D said...

You guys all need to read this carefully:

www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/white_paper.php

This puts the whole slaughter issue into perspective, from a veterinarian point of view. It's very informative

And I have also discovered a few more things:

www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=202786

This refers to the possible opening of a new slaughter plant in N.D

www.nwanews.com/adg/Business_Matters/
208144/print/

This refers to the effects of horse slaughter on horse prices in the industry

austriancurls said...

j_kane:

You're absolutley right.

BuckdOff said...

Alaskan Fugly:I commend you for giving these poor guys a humane ending,If I went to an auction,I would also buy and euthanise any horses that were suffering and not going to make it.I happen to believe that's the right thing to do.Some people do not have a soul,how the hell can they make money off some creature's misery,I just don't know.Money just doesn't enter into it for me anyway.

BuckdOff said...

I'm sorry,I always get so upset on this topic,I've just gotta leave for a while...My husband calls it Nettiquette.....

hollypossum said...

Thanks to JD for posting about he proposed slaughter plants in Ark. and S Dakota. I'm contacting my legislators and I think everyone should do the same. there is a site that you can go on and sign a petition against this http://www.thepetitionsite.com/browse-petitions/

I had my legislators reply to my petitions signed this way so don't hesitate to use this site it works

winterwonderland said...

fuglyfuglyfugly:

My grandfather used to be a horse trader and dealt with Simon's a lot back to 40 yrs. ago. He got a lot of the money he has now from kill horses. He built his empire to where it is now from that. Now he's into higher end horses and bucking stock (figures).

He still loads up his trailers every week though, now he just has buyers do it for him.

I've known people that have tried buying back their horses after they've ended up in his pens and he doesn't care.

cookie said...

honestly, outing shit bag backyard breeders will get you alot farther in the struggle to combat inhumane treatment of horses, IE: slaughter. Kill buyers are a symptom of the overpopulation problem. "Kill Buyers" are not going to Joe Schmoe's farm and buying horses one at a time. They are buying in bulk at the auction yards. This is simple supply and demand economics. Decrease the supply, and if it is something people want, they will pay for it. At that point, horse traders would not be bothering to ship to kill. They would be catering to the upper crust of the population, their horses would ride in luxurious padded trailers, not double deckers.

EventGirl said...

Hoof print horse care is a "rescue" but it is actually a woman and her husbands...I will find the names of the people... and they actually take in horses and then take them straight to the horse slaughter house in dekalb, IL. I have heard of a few stories about people sending horses to this "rescue" and then finding out that it is just a horse desposal service.

winterwonderland said...

I think the arguement Fugly Horse had was more about misrepresenting themselves as good homes and then trucking them to the kill pens.

Yes, that does happen, and they do go out and collect them one by one.

See above mentioned KB, I know he still has people doing it around here every day.

KB's are the garbage men like Fugly said, and right now there is a need for them. But they should not be taking horses from people trying to get them good homes, when there are plenty of unwanted horses out there to fill their trucks.

Gretchen said...

Those of you who oppose horse slaughter plants in the USA are the CAUSE of horses being transported to Mexico and killed in horrific ways.

NO, horse slaughter plants are not what ANY of us want to see. But I would MUCH rather see energy focused on laws for HUMANE transport and the HUMANE end to their lives IN the US -- rather than shipping them long, long distances in crappy conditions, and having them butchered horrifically in Mexico.

cutthecrap said...

Buster Bain(Bane?)
Possibly Tom Norton, not for sure if he still does horses.


AND THEN STRAIGHT FROM THE LOCAL PAPER WANT ADS

1-2 Punch! WOW! CASH PAID for slaughter Horses We Pick UP Call 541-548-3337

HEEHEEHEE

I wonder what kind of calls they might get!!!

Truthseeker said...

Our local "kill buyer" is a good man and an excellent horseman. He rehabs and resells his better quality buys.

I think it was premature to close the US horse slaughter plants, which were regulated.

People get sentimental and emotional about the thought of horses getting slaughtered (little animals wearing white gloves and skipping hand in hand through the forest). It is not a pretty thing, but I think it would have been better to have fixed the problems of irresponsible breeding and so on before closing down the plants.

BuckdOff said...

Gretchen:I don't feel that I'm the "cause" of inhumane transport of horses to slaughter in foreign countries,please give me a break.I'm never going to agree with some of you on this issue.But,I try to help out animals,even if it's one animal,and I know it will sound corny as hell to some of you,but I would personally like to leave this earth just a little better before I depart.

BuckdOff said...

So much for Nettiquette,I'm back....Is anyone going to Washington in March? Is this for anti-slaughter?Does anyone think this will help?

Nemrac1416 said...

heres a BYB of puppies pretty sick story. People who shouldn't have animals....shouldn't breed them!

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/story_1254037___article_pluck.html/puppy_share.html#slComments

lucky boy said...

Well now, ain't this a discussion? I for one do not begrudge the men and women that buy at auctions as "horsejockies, traders or kill buyers". Every industry has a low scale end of the market. Crippled, neglected, abused or just plain dumped horses end up at sales for many different reasons as we all know. That is a given, I don't need to reopen that issue. We as horse owners are responsible for the care of these animals..period. That said , not all owners are of equall level of education, monetary blessing or moral standing. Too many cheap horses produces too many cheap horses. Slaughter buyers do skim off good horses often by default that is true. I am a breeder and trail rider NOT a horse hugger. I have a wife to give me grief over that point so comments here will not hurt my feeling nor change my view of the necessity of horse slaughter. Rescue facilities are a good thing I truly and freely admit that. Yet in my mind,I doubt they will or even can save them all. No, some horses are destined to be put down. As a hard nosed bastard as some will think of me, I don't condone cruelty or neglect. We need education as well as debate. Emotions run high and often wild on the slaughter issue, step back, breathe, and most of all educate yourselves please. We have taken the time to learn deworming schedules, vaccination routines and nutritional requirements now we must turn our intellect to the overall economic view. Free markets run on supply and demand plain and simple. With the end of slaughter markets providing a floor to our industry the surplus is now choking us to a standstill. Does the saying "Good money after bad" rign a bell here people? Governmental subsidies of corn for ethonal have jacked up EVERYONES feed bill. Drought conditions have raised hay prices. Cheap horses are no cheaper to feed than any others. In fact, a rescued animal with medical issues will demand even more money to maintain. Again, more power to those people called to rescue as many horses as THEY can AFFORD, just don't expect me to sympathize with your request for a cash donation. I like horses, don't get me wrong, they are an incredible animal. We just need to inject common sense, we can't save them all or they will drag us all down.

Nemrac1416 said...

heres the second part

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/state_1254058___article.html/unsatisfactory_complaints.html

BuckdOff said...

Lucky Boy:I agree that all horses can not be saved and sick,crippled and dying horses should be put out of their misery.I don't think they should be dragged across the auction floor,or ridden around when they are skin and bones there.I believe in euthanasia not a trip to Mexico or Canada in a double decker.I donate money to rescues and do not expect anyone else to.I gladly give money to a cause that is decent considering we are paying for everyone's EVERYTHING here in this state.I don't believe someone is a good person if they are a KB and they misrepresent themselves to a seller.Anyway,as I said before,we aren't going to agree on this,but I'm glad for the lively discussion.

only1fugly4me said...

I have seen pictures of horses raised specifically to be meat animals in France. Someone commented on this.

Horses can not be transported in double deckers anymore, correct? I thought that was banned. Maybe I'm confused about whether that legislation passed.

And I agree horsemeat sounds disgusting to me. But my nephew raised in Germany loves it. He was shocked he couldn't get it in the USA. I like corn, but when we had German friends over for the 4th of July they wouldn't touch it. Why? Corn is pig food, not human food.

My anger is directed at the people who keep breeding fuglies and to the people who drop Old Blue off at the auction and don't have the courage to no-sale when the KB wins the bid. And there's others but you get the picture.

only1fugly4me said...

CutnJump said it right. The killer buyer has a job because of other people's actions/inactions. He cleans up the mess. Just like ugly vultures serve a purpose and nasty flies and maggots. Something bad happened and they show up. The something bad is too many horses, not all fuglies either. Overabundance of horses = cheap horses = just about everyone can buy one and breed it then when they lose their job take it/them to the auction.
This train wreck has been coming for years.

Lori said...

Wow. I so believe we need to out these guys. I read Joe's journal every morning and I really admire him for what he does. I think people need to know that they are out there. Just tonight in our area (Salinas/Monterey) there is an ad on Craigslist for a "free horse". I've made contact with the individual just to give them the heads up that there are some really unethical people out there. It's one thing to put a horse down in a humane way; it's another to send them to Mexico. I'm not sure there are any KB's in our area, but if there are, I'd like to know who they are.

only1fugly4me said...

I forgot. In 1960, in Vicenza, Italy, our collie was taken out of our yard (large, tall, stonewalled garden area with a wrought iron gate) quite soon after she was let out to "go" to the bathroom early am Dec. 24. Police were called and the gypsies that had gone through town were stopped in the next town. A search turned up Smokies pelt and her leather collar and tags. She'd been eaten for their holiday dinner.
These people weren't necessarily poor (some of their campers were pulled by Mercedes), it's just dogmeat was a delicacy to them, they saw a big one and stole it.

cookie said...

winterwonderland said:
"Yes, that does happen, and they do go out and collect them one by one.
See above mentioned KB, I know he still has people doing it around here every day.
KB's are the garbage men like Fugly said, and right now there is a need for them. But they should not be taking horses from people trying to get them good homes, when there are plenty of unwanted horses out there to fill their trucks."

A reply from someone with alot of inside knowledge:

1. These people are probably dealers looking to turn a buck. Not kill buyers.
2. People who bother to advertise their horses are greedy. They are usually asking more than $300 a head, kill buyers can shop in bulk at the auctions for under $200 a head. No reason to buy slaughter horses one at a time.
3. If you can't out bid a kill buyer to save a horse, you couldn't afford the rehab it in the first place.

HorseWings said...

I used to go to local auctions here in Maine and got to know some of the KB's and BYB's who every year brought in their weanlings and yearlings. I stopped going when a BYB brought in a group of two year old unhandled tobianos, unregistered of course, and every one went to the KB and off to Canada. I confronted the bitch out in the parking lot and we almost got arrested. She'll be back next year with this year's stock. There's so many asshats... so few bullets.

As far as prospecting horses at auctions... take someone with you that knows that auction and the regulars. If you can't, go and watch at least once before you bid on anything. There is always a system going on, sellers bid on each others' horses to drive the prices up when they see an "outsider" interested. Then if they happen to win the bid, they'll just push it back through. Also, KB's often have someone else bid on horses for them too so you might not know they are KB's. There's lots of underhanded shit that goes on at these places.

Living in a northern border state, we're in the slaughter horse pipeline so there are a fair number of horses getting a one-way trip through here. Some get bought up locally but most end up on a meat hook at the slaughter plant in Canada. But remember, this is these guys' livelihoods. You really don't want to get too damned righteous with some of them, seriously. Don't square off because a few are dangerous. One KB I met has done time and is a pretty ustable fuck. Really, I hate to say this, but no horse is worth losing your teeth or your life for... be careful and good luck.

And remember, too, that some of these guys do genuinely like horses, they just aren't in love with them like this group of horse-loving crazy people. They are a commodity to be bought and sold. For the most part, KB's and slaughter plants aren't evil assholes, they are just making a living cleaning up the mess someone else has made. If you want to fix the problem, start at the source... Like Fugs is trying to do here.

winterwonderland said...

Excuse me Cookie, my grandfather was a horse trader for 30 yrs. (not proud of it) and worked directly with Simons, so...I do know. Maybe not in your area, but it does happen here. All the time. Put an ad in the paper once for a "free to a good home" horse and you'll see. If it's close to their home ranch YES they WILL come out for one horse if there's a profit in it for them.

And who said anything about outbidding a kill buyer? You've got me confused with someone else.

winterwonderland said...

And no, they are not just people turning a buck, they work directly for him as buyers.

JDI - Rants &amp; Raves said...

Vicarious said...
I just did a quick internet search and came up with the names of two Canadian shippers, Scott Irvine and Ron Sebastian. I don't know if anyone has seen these before (I know I haven't), but the following links are two Livestock Receipts for these two guys. Notice how they list what condition the horses are in on the receipt.


**

I live in the area where Scott Irvine is; he is a horse trader - he does sell for slaughter, but he sells sound/usable horses (by his discretion) for more money (than meat price) to people looking for a resale prospect.

The dude ranch I used to manage bought some of the best horses we had from him. Of course that was before I came along, and the ranch had since cut ties with him, but he did sell the ranch some nice quiet kids' horses. So he's not solely a kill buyer - having said that, I wouldn't want to deal with him.. ever.

robyn said...

I continue to believe most Americans think because the U.S. slaughter houses are not taking horses that horses are now safe.
~~~~~~~~

I was helping my neighbor this am--her horses got loose. We got into talking about safety, horse theft, slaughter, etc. She said this exact same thing--there's no more slaughter in the US anymore, so horses are safe. Not sure where she thought that all the unwanted ones were going. And this is a person whose family are well-known/respected breeders of cutting horses. I told her how things really were, but I don't think it really made a differenct to her. She is one of those types that view horses as commodities instead of companions.

robyn said...

I continue to believe most Americans think because the U.S. slaughter houses are not taking horses that horses are now safe.
~~~~~~~~

I was helping my neighbor this am--her horses got loose. We got into talking about safety, horse theft, slaughter, etc. She said this exact same thing--there's no more slaughter in the US anymore, so horses are safe. Not sure where she thought that all the unwanted ones were going. And this is a person whose family are well-known/respected breeders of cutting horses. I told her how things really were, but I don't think it really made a differenct to her. She is one of those types that view horses as commodities instead of companions.

BlueWillow said...

FHOTD, thanks for doing that. That's exactly what I needed. I am good at playing dumb, unemotional blonde, too. Oh, and since I had nothing to do with the making of them, family trait--yep, plenty of cleavage. If anyone needs to borrow me--I can get us some rescue horses for nearly free :-P

Helpful information on what to look for, to anyone going to buy, especially.

I absolutely want to clarify--I wasn't seeking advice in order to buy, though.

I am going for a couple reasons--there is a tack sale, prior.

And I just want to be more educated/informed about this whole issue, and what goes on there.

The last sale I went to was many years ago, when I was more naive, and the horse market was boatloads better.

If I go, it will be girded for a shock.

Trust me, my finances will prevent any impulse sympathy buys.

Predatorystump: I am in SW WV. Your horse very likely came thru Donald Ray Mullens' place. He often uses family members' names, as well, on legal documents, due to, er, issues he's had. He is one who travels a lot.

What breed is your colt? If he's gaited, it's almost a given he is a Donald Ray horse. He will have some baggage, if he was handled much at all, there.

I didn't have time to read rest of the posts, but thanks to all who chimed in.

BlueWillow said...

Oh, forgot to add, Donald Ray Mullens is inthe Wayne/Lavalette, WV area. Wife's name is Sherry, if they are still married.

He has several children. Last I heard, three sons, one daughter. Any of their names are likely to appear on documents.

jump2thamoon said...

I am from WV as well. There is a sale coming up this weekend in Spencer WV I believe. March the 1st.

Kristen said...

Dennis Chavez in Los Lunas, NM owns the Southwest Livestock auction where he ships 100's of horses a week to Juarez and other MX slaughter houses. I have rescued 3 horses from there in the last year but its almost too depressing to go as there are so many horses for sale/designed for slaughter.. Next weekend, March 8th-9th is his next big "Horse Sale". He is the kill buyer/auction owner so horses stay at full meat price and never dip lower..

Kristen said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Kristen said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Kristen said...
This post has been removed by the author.
marzbarz said...

Blogger Kristen said...

Dennis Chavez in Los Lunas, NM owns the Southwest Livestock auction where he ships 100's of horses a week to Juarez and other MX slaughter houses. I have rescued 3 horses from there in the last year but its almost too depressing to go as there are so many horses for sale/designed for slaughter.. Next weekend, March 8th-9th is his next big "Horse Sale". He is the kill buyer/auction owner so horses stay at full meat price and never dip lower..

---------------------------------

LOS LUNAS? OMG - My mother lives there. I never thought it was more than a blink-and-pass lil rural town (amidst others of the same type). Sheesh - I'll be out there visiting this spring, and my birthday is March 8. If she didn't have an advanced stage of MS, I'd have her save a horse for my bday.

I live in NW area of Houston. I haven't been to an auction in 11 yrs, but I used to go nearly weekly when I lived down in Galveston Co. for the tack sales that came before the horses ran through. Far more naive at that time. Anyone know of specific auctions in the Houston/SE Texas area that are current?

After reading every post in this particular thread, I doubt I'll be sleeping for a long while.

Icey said...

i am so sick and tired of you people on this blog blaming the american slaughter export on europeans...

do you actually know WHY europe and asia import american horse meat???

it is because there is so much of it, and since there is so much, it is CHEAP.

i see on this blog, people making fun of breeders of "less than stellar horses" and screaming about slaughter. and then i read what? close to 100 posters proudly telling of their breeding buisness...

guess what? for every horse you breed, you help the slaughter marked. for every "fine" horse you breed, a less fine one goes to slaughter, that might have found a good home had there not been a slightly more perfect one on the marked.

dont blame it on europeans, we are not the ones who breed these horses. we have strict laws and regulations on our breeding rights. we do not have any over population, and guess what? youll have to look far and long to find inhuman treatment of horses in slaughterhouses.

blame it on yourselves. stop breeding if you feel it is so terrible, and buy one of those already there.

as far as i am concerned, you should all breed. the horses feed a purpose outside of america. i dont eat them, because i come from a country that is self sufficient with horse meat, but it is nice to know that good quality european horses dont have to go to slaughter, because you americans fill the market more than willingly.

(and yes, that was sarcasm)

kryrinn said...
This post has been removed by the author.
kryrinn said...

"I continue to believe most Americans think because the U.S. slaughter houses are not taking horses that horses are now safe."

That's similar to most any other major social single-issue (or perceived single-issue) campaign. Once the political aspect of the campaign is completed, people figure it's accomplished, and your support and donations fall through the floor.

So a lot of people that donated to anti-slaughter saw it get outlawed, did a "yay!", and completely forget about the number of unwanted horses out there, or what's going to happen with their lives, and the complete lack of education that would prevent another situation in the future.

I would be very careful with actually posting pictures of KB's, though. It's a) a privacy minefield, and b) they'll sue and claim defamation of character (regardless of whatever truth allegations may hold - and a decent lawyer WILL kill most good testimony one can present).

On the issue of show/sport horse farms and culls, though - genetics dicates that there will always be culls. And farm people cannot distance themselves (show dog breeders do this too) and assume that their cull instantly equals someone else's beloved pet. Often there is a physiological/behavioral issue that makes a cull a cull, and often prevents it from being a pet, too. A horse with an incorrect shoulder, back, fetlocks, legs, etc will often be lame much more often than a correctly-conformed horse. So, should a person that doesnt show be happy with a horse that is often lame, just bc they aren't a show person? No. That's positing the breeders above the "family homes" (for people that depend on them - it's ridiculous how some show people look down on non-show people) and if you're trying to get someone to take an imperfect animal, telling them that they're "lower" or whatever does NOT get you any closer to a good home for an animal, especially in the U.S. with everyone's egos. That's not to say that each person that wants a weekend trail horse needs a horse that can compete in a three-star event, but it also goes back to my lameness argument above.

There are always going to be horses that are unwanted, or incapable for whatever reason of performing what is necessary or expected of them. The issue is then what to do with them - I see three or four (or more ) ads on the local craigslist daily that are all perfect examples of what BYB crap Fugly often talks about, and we all know reducing breeding is a key element to fixing this issue - but the issue is that there is no way you can force people to spay/neuter/geld their animals. This isn't just a horse issue, it's also a dog/rabbit/cat/companion animal problem. Education will help - but there's always those who won't care and won't listen. The public policy in this area is incredibly difficult to create.

austriancurls said...

Cool icey.

eighthoundz said...

Here is a website that tells you a little more about that shitbag, Arlow Kiehl. Nice guy, huh? I think there are pictures.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/6087/NY/US/

PredatoryStump said...

kryrinn

Often there is a physiological/behavioral issue that makes a cull a cull, and often prevents it from being a pet, too. A horse with an incorrect shoulder, back, fetlocks, legs, etc will often be lame much more often than a correctly-conformed horse.

It may just be me.. but I think that if anyone is breeding the amount of horses that the program would necessitate culling.... They sure as hell had better be not be breeding any horses that are going to pass on conformational and behavioral defects..

A good, thought out, breeding program will result in usable horses.. Not all may be show quality, but all should be fundamentally sound..

Yes, every once in a while there will be a baby that will be born with a problem... but NEVER to the extent that would necessitate yearly culling.

secondwindacres said...

robyn said...
Once the political aspect of the campaign is completed, people figure it's accomplished, and your support and donations fall through the floor. So a lot of people that donated to anti-slaughter saw it get outlawed, did a "yay!", and completely forget about the number of unwanted horses out there, or what's going to happen with their lives...

YES! The bulk of supporters pick up a "cause" and know absolutely zilch about the ENTIRE problem...they have just one piece of it presented to them, gather together as a group and fuel each other's fervor and barrel headlong into...what? Do they even know? Does anyone ask about the effects their actions will cause? Is there a plan for the future presented and implemented at the same time the laws they are seeking to change actually do change? In the beginning, did ANYONE tell ANYONE that if the slaughterhouses in the U.S. were closed that our unwanted horses will now suffer even longer inhumane trips on double deckers to plants as bad and worse than the ones in the U.S.? I never knew enough about slaughter until I started doing some research, but most anti-slaughter supporters were just groupies in my opinion, and followed the crowd without digging any further into the problem than "OMG! The pretty horses are being killed!". Now we are faced with a more horrible situation and are backpeddling like crazy, trying to get the transport of horses being shipped out of this country for meat banned. I have taken in 2 rescues who were bound for slaughter and want the inhumane treatment of horses and all animals stopped, but more people need to do better research before throwing big bucks at a situation they don't fully understand.

PredatoryStump said...

bluewillow

He's not gaited, so far as I can tell. Lovely, floating trot.. when he motivates himself.

And yeah, he had some initial issues when we got him home. Poor boy was rather scuffed up and REFUSED to go thru doors and gates.
He was terrified of it. I think he was starting to equate going thru a door or a gate to being chased onto another damn stock trailer.
God only knows where he really came from.

He's a very sweet boy, tho. That fear vanished once he realized that he was staying.
He's not conformationally great (just slightly post legged, and a litte ewe necked) but he'll make my mother a nice, quiet riding horse.

BuckdOff said...

You know,I was waiting for some Europeans to get in on our discussion here.I do not personally blame you guys for this slaughter dilemna.I don't believe I,as an anti-slaughter house person am to blame either.We have to figure out what to do with all of these unwanted horses,and yes,as much as I'm sick of all this legislation,I think Calif. has taken a good first step.Pet owners should start to "man up" and do the right thing.Personal accountability is wicked rare right now.Once again,on this issue,it comes down to a Pet vs livestock thing.KB consider horses as product.But I continue to think Europeans and Asians eat some Hella Gross stuff.Animal fetuses,ick Who the Hell does that? Dogs....Yick......

BuckdOff said...

AND yes,I just found another person,a stable owner,no less,who doesn't believe slaughter is still happening to our horses.He asked his Vet,she verified it...He said he will be more careful with his own horses,should they change hands.I'm just happy that another person was informed on this issue,Thanks Fugly,

BuckdOff said...

Secondwindacres: I don't think most of the anti-slaughter people realized horses would be shipped out of the country once the U.S. slaughter houses closed.I wasn't in on any of this until very recently.Maybe some of the uninformed jumped on the bandwagon.It seems very possible as this is an issue that people can feel very strongly about.But ,I get really pissed when all of these Realists accuse me of Bambifying this slaughter issue.Just because things were always done one way,doesn't mean we should not be open to new ideas.I would just be satisfied with HUMANE at this point,and I know I'm not alone.I've gotta go and do some work now,have enjoyed the discussion,though.

BuckdOff said...

Secondwindacres: I don't think most of the anti-slaughter people realized horses would be shipped out of the country once the U.S. slaughter houses closed.I wasn't in on any of this until very recently.Maybe some of the uninformed jumped on the bandwagon.It seems very possible as this is an issue that people can feel very strongly about.But ,I get really pissed when all of these Realists accuse me of Bambifying this slaughter issue.Just because things were always done one way,doesn't mean we should not be open to new ideas.I would just be satisfied with HUMANE at this point,and I know I'm not alone.I've gotta go and do some work now,have enjoyed the discussion,though.

HorsePoor said...

I've read that horse meat sells for up to $15.00 a pound overseas as a delicacy. That doesn't strike me as cheap.

I don't care what people eat. To each their own. My problem is Americans don't eat horses so if foreigners want to, why can't they eat their own instead of ours?

Zhenya said...

hey winterwonderland - where in lakeville is that kill farm? i keep my horse in lakeville ..... wonder if i drive by the simons' place all the time. *shivers*

nyxin said...

It is amazing how many US horse owners think that all horse slaughter has come to an end.

I quickly direct them here as well as explain the easy Monopoly that this situation has created for the kill buyers. They may have to drive further to get a pay out, but with horses so cheap, it all shakes out in the wash.

I think I may write to some CO officials and see what they believe is going on. Perhaps the people that can do something have turned a blind eye too.

Speaking of that, do you think PETA knows what a cluster fuck is going on with horses going to Canada and Mexico? Or do you think they think it's all good?

Morgan_Horse_Queen said...

IMHO what we consider the horse slaughter issue in the US is an ungodly mix of negligent and uninformed behavior that the KBs take advantage of. Here's how it breaks down to me:

* If you need to dispose of an old, lame, sick, wacko, horse there are a limited number of alternatives and a lot of negligent and uninformed people trying to deal with the problem. If you are in this situation you basically have the vet or the auction house. The vet is the best, but even that presents problems for people who are hard up for money or who are dealing with something they know nothing about and are easily swayed by the lure of the auction. It would be great to see some innovation here - regional euthanasia centers, horse funeral homes, something. Make it easier for people to take care of these marginal animals and I think it would help. It would at least reduce the horror of not only sending horses in gruesome shape to kill but the danger for the people who actually eat them on the other end.

* Overbreeding - we've talked about this issue here a lot and I can't add much to it. But it really does need to stop.

* Unethical/shady/illegal actions of some KBs - again, they prey on people's ignorance and denial. When it comes right down to it, I am neutral about slaughter. If it would go on, it needs to be completely out in the open and regulated more strictly than it was. Stolen horses, horses obtained by deception, wrong horses in the pipeline (drugs, ill etc) make it a repulsive business right now. These guys can operate under the radar because, again, people are ignorant, ill informed, and in denial. Make that fact of it and the way it is conducted right now an open part of the horse business (not gussied up like it is portrayed in the pro slaughter camp) and I think that could change some behavior. It changed mine.

* Cultural - there are a large number, it seems, of people who see horses as livestock. Don't know what inroads we can make against that - it's a pretty resistant bunch - but I do think the number of people who feel that way is lessening.

So, knowing who the KBs are and how they behave is a small step if you are trying to sell a horse. Trying to make people understand about the market right now and what their alternatives are is an ongoing task. I wish it was possible to go to places like Equine Affaire and have an open and honest discussion about end of life issues for horses. All horse people need to know what alternatives are available in their area and what their personal view of death for horses is *before* they need to confront the issue. And for cripes sake, let's be honest about the state of the market as well.

End of ramble!!!

Zhenya said...

i realize and respect that this is a sensitive topic, but here's my $.02. i have zero problem with people/cultures who eat horse meat (or dog meat, or cat, or whatever). they are not in any way the cause of the overbreeding problem in the u.s. as some before have said, it's basic supply side economics. and i can't understand why it's relevant if they eat u.s. or european/asian horsemeat ..... a horse foaled in italy or france or korea is no less cute and doe-eyed than one foaled in the states.

my main concern is that the horses are well-treated and humanely handled and euthed. am i pro horse slaughter in the u.s? not exactly, no. given that there's no domestic market for horse meat, i don't think it's strictly necessary - but i do think that it would be an improvement to horses starving to death in their pastures or being shipped for hours on a cramped double decker bus to mexico.

what i REALLY think, though - and the underlying point of fugly's blog, as i see it - is that this is a problem that needs to be addressed from the supply side. stop the indiscriminate breeding, don't breed horses for which there is no market. then we won't have to debate about slaughter, because, in the u.s. anyway, it wouldn't be an issue.

as for the bigtime breeders that prodice culls - yes, i recognize that you can have a well-thought-out breeding program, and occasionaly get an offspring that, by some fluke, isn't up to the goals of your operation. but a responsible, decent breeder will 1) geld/spay the cull so it has no way of passing on its defects, and 2) provide a lifelong home for it so it won't end up on a plate or starving in a paddock in some shithole. if you have the money to breed big time, i think you ought to have the money (and conscience) to do that much.

i see this issue from both sides, being half european myself (though horse meat is not such a big thing in russia- at least. not in the cities) and having grown up partially there, partially in the us, and partially in the far east. there is something innate about horses - it's almost poetry - that moves me, and my eyes have welled up at more than one of the stories of abuse featured on this blog. but i also don't think we can afford to let our emotions get in the way of doing the best thing for horses.....and one has to start somewhere.

Morgan_Horse_Queen said...

I'd just like to clarify - I have never sent a horse to auction or sold one to the KBs. What I meant to say above is that knowing more about the issue has changed my mind, not my behavior. We've always used the vet when it was time - but I was totally ignorant about slaughter/auctions/KBs etc. Just something I never encountered in my horsey life. And an ugly part of the horse biz it is.

Ella said...

geesh - look at this shit! Dept of Ag person starving his own animals!

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080229/D8V3STS00.html

princesses'slave said...

Hosspoor said: I've read that horse meat sells for up to $15.00 a pound overseas as a delicacy. That doesn't strike me as cheap.


Remember the exchange rate, and that the US dollar is the lowest it has been. Some steak houses charge that for beef(think of that ritzy $35/plate filet mignon!)

CutNJump said...

A5ftFury said...
How about we post pictures and names of trainers who actively abuse and beat their horses at home and on the show grounds?

Great Idea! But, there would never be enough room!

HorsePoor said...

I agree horses overseas are no less precious than U.S. horses. My point was I can't control what people eat overseas, don't want to, don't care. However if they ate their own horses there would be no demand for ours. Makes no sense to me.

I've also read about horse meat being a delicacy and thereby expensive because alot of butchers sell horse meat in secret to select clients. Even in Europe there are horse lovers opposed to slaughtering horses and eating horse meat.

My problem with this issue is it's hard to discern what the true facts are and what is exaggeration and drama. A good factual source of info would be ever so helpful.

HorsePoor said...

OT, but I got a little chuckle out of this.

http://tinyurl.com/32dqwr

Just cuz you rode a horse in a movie doesn't mean you're an expert. LMAO!

Zhenya said...

horsepoor - bahahaha hilarious story! it always cracks me up, movie stars/celebs who think they can just hop on any ol' horse and look like they do in a film. i remember when madonna broke her arm a few years back, too......

that being said, i have a soft spot for viggo mortensen who (in addition to being, IMHO, hot as all get-out), not only spent time learning to actually ride, but also bought the horses he rode with in hidalgo and LOTR because he got so attached to them. *swoon*

HorsePoor said...

Mmmmm, Viggo, yummy! I love Hidalgo, one of my favorite horsey movies.

4thehorses said...

Horses are not slaughtered right away, they do spend normally spend 30 days at a feed lot which allows drugs to get out of their systems. Also, the skinny horses have to fatten.

spiritofhopefarm said...

Hey Horse wings, I think I know what auction you were talking about and I've been there many times myself. We stopped going, too because the owner of the auction house vocally objected to an article about our rescue that mentioned the often-poor condition of horses at auctions, even though it didn't mention his specific place by name. Anyway, Hi, from a fellow Mainah!

By the way, has anybody visited the U.S. Department of Agriculture's website? I'd love for someone to point out anywhere on that site where horses are specifically referred to as livestock or a page on the website on which horses are lumped with other livestock... good luck! So if the USDA is reluctant to refer to horses specifically as livestock, why do most states still do it? Mostly you'll find it's local politics and people not wanting horses to be considered pets because as one farm bureau rep repeatedly refrains, "it's a slippery slope.. if we let them reclassify horses as companion animals, the sheep will be next, then the goats. Pretty soon we'll won't even be able to milk a cow without having to defend ourselves against cruelty charges because our hands were too cold." sigh.... drama and politics go so far to keep horses in jeopardy.

only1fugly4me said...

buckdoff said...
J.Kane:My world is not disposable,it's humane...

Good. You and many others feel this way. That's why people rescue horses, why they keep their old, lame, or otherwise infirm horses until their time here is done. The problem is MOST of Americans do not feel this way. The numbers at the auctions and the numbers of abandoned horses tell the story.

And as to the people who instigated the closing of US slaughter not realizing what would happen, What...aren't they adults, fully capable of understanding cause and effect, action/reaction, seeing past the end of their own nose, etc....
They don't get off the hook. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. BUT the real problem is TOO MANY HORSES combined with disposable attitude. If you don't fix those, the problem is not going to go away.
BTW--the people that succeeded in passing the legislation to end slaughter in the US would also like to end your ownership of horses, not exactly a group I would ever be associated with.

CutNJump said...

OMG! Kristen in Los Lunas! I know you woman! How is the Sand Man? Funny meeting you here...

40whatever said...

"BTW--the people that succeeded in passing the legislation to end slaughter in the US would also like to end your ownership of horses, not exactly a group I would ever be associated with."

That really is innaccurate. I am no member of PETA and i am a horse owner and i am actively against slaughter of horses for human consumption.

I belieive everyone is erroneously saying that the problems in the horse industry are the result of the "end of slaughter". Say what? Slaugher is completely legal, its just in MEX or CANADA. Buyers are out there buying up horses for loads to go. The real problems are in the equine industry with regard to breeding/overbreeding and the fact that we are in a recession folks. No hay due to drought, grain in my area is sky high, gas hitting $4 a gallon they are suggesting? All this hits me in my disposable income that i personally use to support my horses. I have less of it.

California has a tremendous number of forclosures as do other areas. These are the problems facing everyone. I read somewhere the shelter pets (dogs/cats) being abandonned in homes is unbelievable.

NOne of this has to do with the end of slaughter.

What i dont get is if in the earlier 90's we were slaughtering 300,000 annually, last full year was around 100,000. What happened to the supposed 200,000 surplus? HUH? How come there were not neglect cases all over, how come there were not abandonned horses all over...How come peopel were not whinning about how they couldnt make a couple lousy bucks from the killer (liek they are now)? I guess my feeling is 100,000 horses can be absorbed and over supply corrected by the industry with reduce breeding. They are already reducing it according to AQHA foal registrations in my state, nebraska, fell from 6000 some in 2006 to 4000 some in 2007. That means they saw the bottom in 2006 coming and planned accordingly. I do understand that QH was one of the only breeds to post an increase in foal registrations last year, my state must be an anomoly, however the Iowa stats mirror ours, just fewer horses overall. We have the McWhirters, Pitzers and so forths here that account for 100's of those registrations alone. But still, i was HAPPY to see the decline in foals registrations... They are getting the message. And it has NOTHING to do with slaughter IMHO.

CutNJump said...

J kane-
>The truth is we are a THROW AWAY society.
If is broken, throw it away; if it is the wrong color, throw it away; I'm moving, throw it away. People do not give a fuck; they do not want to take responsibility for the animal they bring into the world, or bought at the store.
Hell you should be thanking the people that eat this meat; otherwise the kill piles would be huge.
Shit look at the dogs and cats dumped on the side of the road when they get inconvenient.<


Or dumped at the pound because nobody took the time to train them and they have behavior issues. The best one yet is we remodeled and they no longer match the furniture or décor. Hubby worked as a vet tech in a small animal clinic for some time. It is appalling the reasons behind careless fucks wanting their dogs put to sleep.

When you are a responsible owner, the vets do not like to discuss euthanasia unless it is a last resort, and will often not bring it up. Mine openly stated that 10 years ago when my much loved Boxer was having problems. She was 9 and developing heart and breathing problems. I brought up euthanasia, burial and cremation options and he said, "We do not like to mention these things unless the owners bring up the topic. Then we are more than happy to discuss the available options." He was very diplomatic and professional about it, for which I am still grateful.

AlaskanFugly said...
>Catnjump, if you don't mind me asking but where in AZ are you? <


Ok not to be mean or anything, but I have noticed a few people making the mistake… it is cUtnjump. Like cUtting horses & jumpers, which we own train and show...

We are in the Queen Creek area or as they refer to us on the news- The FAR East Valley. (I'm not sure when it became the Far East, but whatever.)

So you can attest to the pretty pic’s of the cows in pasture on the PLA website as being nowhere in sight? Did you ever run into Holly Morino? She has a rescue up in Scottsdale and they once bought a horse there for $12.50. It was on channel 3.

Channel 12 did a story about the killer buyers before they closed the slaughterhouses. They asked one of the KB’s on tape if he ever tells people (sellers) where their horse is going. His reply, "I am not obligated to, and most of them don’t want to know anyways."

I will look for the name of the company doing the animal testing and the location. It was also on the local news since Mr. McCartney had been here protesting it. The City of Chandler was giving the company some major incentives from what I recall. I will post it all as soon as I find it.

I have several more thngs about this whole topic, but I will break up the post so it isn't too awful long...

emilia said...

heres a blog with some info. on the Canadian front:
http://laughing1wolf.blogspot.com/2007/09/makes-me-sick-grrrrrrrrr.html

spiritofhopefarm said...

40whatever, did you also notice that QH's account for the greatest numbers of horses slaughtered? I don't think that's a coincidence. Some breeders and breed registries simply don't get it. The AQHA has stood against the anti-slaughter bills, throws huge money at futurities to encourage the overtraining and overworking of developing horses, and continues to permit the registration of HYPP N/H horses... just those three things tells me a lot about what the purpose behind AQHA really is... and it isn't horse welfare.

only1fugly4me said...

"We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. ... One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding."
-- Wayne Pacelle, Senior Vice-President oF HSUS, formerly of Friends for Animals; Quoted in Animal People, May, 1993
*****************
You may think you are supporting a good cause until you don't have a horse to ride anymore.

Shadow Rider said...

OK ,I am on one of the against slaughter lists so here is some info..
Yes, there is an event in DC March 4-5 so far about 75 people are coming to talk to their representatives about the slaughter bill. Anyone want to join them the info is at againstslaughter@yahoogroups.com

Before the slaughter houses in the US were shut down, did you know we were importing horses from Canada for slaughter? Here is one of the reports http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IEjIR8mvDRmKjrunk6gk8Wbvaru_XKwd3w4Cl-BWC8pMruIZwuvAzv12lM4SGbE7GabuDOcu0gxX3SsP-ctczvKxva3LYp71dHMJl5kI/US%20Equines%20Slaughtered%202007.pdf
It also shows the changes in the numbers when the slaughter houses were shut down.

Mexico slaughter plants sell to local resteraunts, that's why they don't care what shape anything they get is in. No regulation on anything there, and yes, they don't worry about europena regs because it is processed before it's shipped to Europe.

and a recent dicussion on that list:
"Yes it is true several people (4 or 6 at much) died in France during the
80's and the 90's after eating horse meat but the decline on the demand has
more to do with market trends and the recurrent BSE (mad cow) and aphthous
fever outbreaks in most parts of Europe. However, those people did not die
as a consecuence of eating meat contaminated with antibiotics or other
chemicals; those products aren't just toxic enough to kill somebody in a
short time period but do cause intoxication as well as corruption of DNA
chains and imbalance of the endocrine system at long term leading to cancer
and other mortal diseases.

Those people contracted a parasitic disease called trichiniasis. It is
caused by an annelid parasite called Trichinella Spiralis naturally found in
swine and horses. This parasite feeds on the host's muscular tissue and can
migrate through the blood stream to more critical areas such as the brain.
Trichiniasis is usually contrated by eating raw or rare meat of infected
animals, which makes sense since horse meat is usually consumed raw as horse
tartare or rared.Daniel"

spiritofhopefarm said...

Icey,
I don't think bloggers here blame Europeans for the U.S. slaughter problem. But it is a matter of fact that most U.S. horses slaughtered for human consumption end up on a table in Europe or Japan. The blame lies squarely on the breeders's shoulders. Even "good/responsible" breeders (since some of you insist they really do exist) can create horses that find their way onto meat trucks at some point in their careers.

sarmichka said...

I for one am not 100% against slaughter. I am however 100,000,000% against cruelty!

I have no patience for
Indiscriminate breeding
Non existant training
Cruel behavior
lazy-ass owners/handlers
OF ANY ANIMAL be it a dairy cow, sheep, dog, parakeet or horse.

Whomever eats the horse isnt the issue. They are just the end of a LONG LINE.
The KB's aren't even the REAL issue here, they aren't entirely innocent, but not the "evil-doers" either...just as some of you have said/written they are just doing a job, making money filling a void.
They do however need to be more humane in thier transport and treatment of these animals.

The slaughter houses, yes they need to up thier anty
More humane treatment.
Slaughter methods designed with Equines in mind.

The biggest culprit I SEE, if you agree or not doesn't matter they aren't innocent NONE OF THEM ARE!!!
BREEDERS...if every breeder in the country BYB, Legit, etc if every one decided NOT TO BREED for 1 year. Just one year...populations would go down.

Those of you more in the know, if every person with a mare and or stallion didnt breed for one year (AND DIDNT MAKE UP FOR THAT THE FOLLOWING YEARS OF COURSE) what kind of decline would we have? Would it be worth it?

Perhaps a campaign nation-wide hell WORLD WIDE
alerting people to the population issue.
Asking people NOT to breed for one year...

It could happen...couldnt it?

summerhorse said...

Most of the active anti-slaughter people are horse owners or horse lovers who were well aware that horses would CONTINUE to go across the border to slaughter. That is why it is so important to get a NATIONAL ban on horse slaughter and to close the borders. Unfortunately it is proving to be very difficult to get that done but horses went over the border both ways since horses have been slaughtered.

Some horses are held in lots and some are killed within hours or days of being run through an auction or being dropped at the dealer's place. It just depends.

Grey horses are used as food but they must be kept separate for inspection for tumors before being packaged so they do not get as high a price as non greys because of the special handling required.

Very few dog food companies use horsemeat.

only1fugly4me said...

40whatever:
only1fugly4me: "BTW--the people that succeeded in passing the legislation to end slaughter in the US would also like to end your ownership of horses, not exactly a group I would ever be associated with."

That really is innaccurate. I am no member of PETA and i am a horse owner and i am actively against slaughter of horses for human consumption.

I belieive everyone is erroneously saying that the problems in the horse industry are the result of the "end of slaughter". Say what?......(see post for details)
************
Taking just part of what one says and responding slants the view. Here's what I said:
BUT the real problem is TOO MANY HORSES combined with disposable attitude. If you don't fix those, the problem is not going to go away.
BTW--the people that succeeded in passing the legislation to end slaughter in the US would also like to end your ownership of horses, not exactly a group I would ever be associated with.
******************
So, I think we're on the same side. I don't like slaughter, but I think the situation is worse for the horse now, than it was before. And I don't care about the economy. Too many horses=cheap horses, so everyone gets one, despite being one paycheck away from homeless. My next horse will come from an auction, most likely someone's cast off, just like all my cats and dogs in my adult life have been.
(and then I posted Wayne's quote...)

I come from a family that loves to discuss, analyze, and lecture on issues, all loudly, over food and wine, everyone saying the same thing differently, only to have someone say (just before tempers flare) Hey, she just said the same thing, only differently. That's most of what is happening here. And I like it almost as much as I do my eating, drinking, arguing must be Italian/Irish (and Basque) family.

winterwonderland said...

Zyhenya - you can see Joe Simon's place from I35 on the West side.

PredatoryStump said...

spiritofhopefarm

Sadly, I have to agree with you.

http://tinyurl.com/2bp5xs

http://tinyurl.com/223uke

http://tinyurl.com/9tytp

http://tinyurl.com/9tytp

Look at those pictures and tell me that you don't see a resemblance.

I grew up a farm girl, with beef cattle..
The modern QH from the halter horse trend, etc... looks like a meat animal.

spiritofhopefarm said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Zhenya said...

ahhhhh winterwonderland, roger that. too close for comfort - it just goes to show ....

CutNJump said...

How Americans, Europeans, Australians, Japanese and folks from around the world view animals- horses, dogs, sheep, pigs, cows, goats, etc., is forever going to vary greatly. How animals are viewed will differ within the borders of our own cities, states or provinces as well as within our own home countries.

Supply and demand will control pricing and the world market as it always has and always will. If the supply of horsemeat from the US suddenly dried up, the rest of the world who consumes horse meat would simply go about finding another source. The price would go up, but the ones who can still afford it will continue to buy it and eat it.

Someone had posted here before about giving the horsemeat to the folks on welfare in exchange for working in the slaughterhouses and processing plants. It would be one way of using up the meat and feeding needy folks, but many of them KNOW they are on a free ride and would do nothing towards changing that. Why work for something when you can have it handed to you for free with little or no effort involved in getting it? Besides the PETA, HSUS and bleeding heart groups would pitch a bitch fit of epic and obscene proportions when they found out about it. I don’t think any of us could imagine the backlash when that news story breaks!

Horse slaughter did keep a floor in the market, but closing the 3 plants in the US merely shifted the numbers of those going over the borders. Living in Arizona, horses were most likely already going to Mexico from here, as it would have been a shorter trip than to Texas. Double Decker semis are still used for sheep, cattle and swine, but are illegal for transporting horses in Arizona to the best of my knowledge.

Peta, HSUS and all the other bleeding heart groups who fought so diligently to stop slaughter are still fighting to stop the horses from shipping over the border. They have put no time, effort or money into doing anything for, or about, the horses who are already being dumped off all over the country. The rescues that were either at or near capacity before the slaughterhouses were closed are now overflowing or close to going under, trying to save them all or as many as they can.

I know of one who housed on average, 30 horses on any given day. Her numbers now are 60+. I have no idea how long she can continue to operate. She asks for volunteers and donations, but does not beg for hay or anything else. She has someone else working on the webpage, but it hasn’t been updated in some time. There are rarely any before or after pictures, because as soon as one horse is adopted, there are 3 or more waiting to take its place.

A good number of well bred/well trained horses end up in the crappy auctions, through no fault of their own. They are the unlucky ones who fall through the cracks. Fugly has spotlighted a few here who have done just that. As we have seen here, people across the board- income, education, race, and religion- do NOT take proper care of their horses, just like folks from the same races, education, religions and income levels do EVERYTHING within their power to take care of their horses.

I could go on and on, but you all get the idea.

The show Bizarre Foods is the one from yesterday I couldn't remember...

only1fugly4me said...

By closing our slaughter plants and by then trying to close our borders to horse transport (and you should wonder if some of the legalese in that bill won't prohibit other shipment of horses) you are not going to change the mindset of people who eat and like horsemeat, no more than bombs and rockets change the minds of Islamic terrorists, or that having someone tell me that God said we should not eat crustaceans will keep me from enjoying crab, shrimp and lobster.

spiritofhopefarm said...

I have to say, with regard to HSUS and PETA, that while they have a more extreme view than some of us may with regard to animals and their roles, they are at the very least not just sitting around and crabbing about a problem, they are taking their ideals and passions and translating it into actions. Whether you agree with their views or not, you have to admit that they are putting up where others are shutting up. None of us will ever agree on everything and some of us won't agree on anything except we care about horses... you would think that would make us good allies but instead we tear each other apart. Think of the good works we could accomplish if we were better able to work toward one or two common goals, like decreasing the surplus of unwanted horses.

spiritofhopefarm said...

Predatory, HOLY MOLY! that Brahma bull was a chiseled beast, huh? But yeah, I could easily see that QH hanging from a meat hook... I am a member of AQHA until it runs out this year and won't re-up and have made it known why, not that they care, there are a million more who will continue to support what they do. And anyway, AQHA is such a good ol' boy network, it makes me GUH (that's the sound made when I puke into my mouth).

secondwindacres said...

Zhenya said:
what i REALLY think, though - and the underlying point of fugly's blog, as i see it - is that this is a problem that needs to be addressed from the supply side. stop the indiscriminate breeding, don't breed horses for which there is no market. then we won't have to debate about slaughter, because, in the u.s. anyway, it wouldn't be an issue.

Amen, a thousand times Amen.

secondwindacres said...

BuckdOff said...
Secondwindacres: I don't think most of the anti-slaughter people realized horses would be shipped out of the country once the U.S. slaughter houses closed.

Don't get involved if you don't understand the repercussions of your actions, it often does MORE harm than good.

summerhorse said...
Most of the active anti-slaughter people are horse owners or horse lovers who were well aware that horses would CONTINUE to go across the border to slaughter

And yet they forged ahead without considering the impact?

If an active lobbyist KNEW that horses would continue to get shipped after slaughter was banned here they should have drafted a more well-thought out plan to cover these poor horses who now suffer worse fates. If an active lobbyist DIDN'T KNOW, as buckdoff said, what in the hell where they thinking?? If you're going to get involved for God's sake get all the facts so you don't make the situation worse.

winterwonderland said...

So, if the bill doesn't pass, would the anti slaughter people support opening SH's in the US again? Because if the bill doesn't pass, that would be what is best for the horses.

What's happening now is a shame, and closing the SH's without a plan caused this (longer distances).

And if the bill does pass and and there are no plans in place for the surplus horses, which there isn't, it's going to be a disaster.

austriancurls said...

You guys are going to hate me, but icey's point too was get control of your pet industry.

The way it seems from here is that the cattle, pig and whatnot industry IS under control (livestock). However, the pet industry in America is and has long been out of control.

The horse industry is a late comer to this, but has now been divided into two groups...those who think they're pets and those who think they're livestock, and handled accordingly and completely diversely.

Everyone talks about their rights and freedoms, and how much they're against registering their animals. We've had registration here for a long time, with every horse having a passport. You know what, it helps stop this kind of anonymous criminality, and what is going on there is just that, cultural criminality all in the name of "freedom to breed" and "do what the hell _I_ want" with my animals.

Super, and they suffer.

spiritofhopefarm said...

actually, I read somewhere that this WAS the plan, because without a really compelling reason, they could not get the Congress to pass the law to prohibit international transport of horses for slaughter since the numbers weren't there for it to be deemed a problem. Also, the other planned ripple effect was indeed to reduce the numbers of horses being produced in the first place by creating a glut in the market since the slaughter house pressure relief valve has been taken away. If this were any other type of commodity, it would have been a brilliant plan... since we're talking live animals, not so much.

If it weren't for inappropriate methods of transport, the hugely long distances to slaughter houses, and terrible conditions in holding pens, along with the incompetent, cruel idiots they hire to slaughter these animals, many people probably would not be so persistently pressing for the demise of the horse slaughter industry. But all of those problems exist so there you go. As my dad says, "IF frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their asses so much." IF doesn't mean a thing except to pose an alternate reality. The recent reality is that slaughter was under-regulated, and riddled with preventable suffering. Dead is dead, in my opinion, and what happens to the corpse after death is really kind of irrelevant. SOMETHING is going to eat us all after we're dead. The amount of suffering an animal must endure prior to that end is, in my estimation, the real problem.

only1fugly4me said...

Austriancurls, you make so much sense.

I need to know:

Is there a charge for the passport?

What happens to people who don't get one? We have good laws on animal welfare but people seldom get in trouble and when they do, they often repeat their crimes (oh, if only public flogging were deemed appropriate here)

How is it enforced? Does someone drive around looking for horses? If only needed for transport the BYB people will never bother.

I'm sure I'll think of other questions, but I am truly interested. We need a model to follow, to suggest to states and (OMG, I can't believe I'm saying this) the federal government (so the can uck it up and change it and make it something different).

Thanks for any info. Got to go, Check back later.

secondwindacres said...

austriancurls:
The way it seems from here is that the cattle, pig and whatnot industry IS under control (livestock). However, the pet industry in America is and has long been out of control.

That's exactly right! The reason being, in my opinion, is that most (note I'm not lumping everyone together) most people don't get all touchie-feelie and emotional about where their pork steak, chicken breast and hamburger come from, so "livestock" don't get as many advocates screaming bloody murder (literally!) about the conditions surrounding their industry. It does come up, but not to the degree that it does for what Americans consider "pets". Let's count how many celebrities use their popularity and money to make sure that pig slaughter is humane and put those numbers up against how many celebrities lobby for humane treatment of pets. Hmmmm...politicians know how to get votes and tugging at American's heartstrings and then passing laws to supposedly ease our pain and our collective conscience does the trick.