We're going to talk stallions and I'm going to decorate this post with stallions I like of various breeds. It's nice to have something pretty here to look at in between all the humane cases and BYB fuglies, isn't it? :-) For those of you interested, the Paint is Impressive Sunrise, the Welsh is Gayfield's Call the Cops, the Arabian is Marajj and the Morgan is Don Diego. In particular, please look at the Welsh. THAT is a breeding quality pony stallion. Based upon what I see out there if I search for pony stallions, many of you need to educate your eye as to what constitutes a breeding quality pony stallion. "Because it's short" is not a good reason.
While we are at it, if you cannot get a better picture of your Hano stallion jumping than this...don't put one up. He is totally flat and looks like he's running off with you. Related point: Because you are a trainer at discipline X does not make you a trainer in discipline Y. And the pictures of your students are scaring the hell out of me. Someone is gonna die there. Remember my comment about how you shouldn't be jumping if you can't trot/canter without your irons and maintain proper equitation? How many of these kids do you think can do that? This looks vaguely familiar, I may have had him on the blog before, but shit, he still sucks, he deserves a second mention! (Disclaimer for the easily confused: I am bashing on the bad training - not the kids. My riding sucked as a child thanks to bad training, I know of what I speak.)
OK, on to my topic: I frequently hear people say that they have their own stallion because it is just cheaper to own your own. This begs the question - is it really? If you do it right?
Now, in the days before A.I. (and in the breeds that still don't allow it), I do understand the fear about sending your mare out to be bred. Just within my small circle of friends, mares have come back from breeding with a skull fracture, 200 lbs. underweight, wire cut to the point of permanent injury, or the foal at side got killed. Even if you visit and inspect a facility prior to letting your mare go there for breeding, it is hard to evaluate whether or not a stallion owner has any common sense on the basis of one visit, and bad things happen even at good barns. I totally understand people who say their mare will go out again when hell freezes over. But these days, most breeds allow A.I. and the risk is pretty much gone. Yes, getting them in foal is harder and more expensive with shipped semen, but your mare can stay safe at home for the entire process and that makes a lot of sense, especially with a valuable mare.
At first glance, it may seem cheaper to own your own stallion with stud fees of $1000+ and mare care of $10+ per day (or semen shipping charges and vet charges for insemination) for the good ones that are out there. This is where you have to look at it in more depth. I am going through the stallion owning experience for the first time, after nearly 33 years in horses. (I have boarded someone else's stallions, and I've handled them for breeding, but this is the first time I have owned my own). As I've stated before, I believe it's your responsibility as a stallion owner to get your stallion out there and campaigned successfully in some discipline, and of course I am holding myself to that same standard. In keeping with that, I have been investigating the true cost of seriously showing for a year and (hopefully) putting some national titles on him. A friend of mine is in the middle of getting her AQHA stallion qualified for the World in the roping events and she filled me in.
Are you all sitting down?
Training/board plus showing: $2300 - $3300 per month
World Show alone: $8000 rough estimate
Boy, all I can say is that I'm glad mine is still a youngster and I have a few years to save up. (You all know my feelings on pounding on young horses - he will stay home and be lightly ridden until I am sure his legs are ready and he's done growing.) I don't know about you, but if I were trying to just have a breeding program and breed my own mares, I could buy a lot of breedings to already proven, excellent quality outside stallions for the cost of sending this one colt off to the big leagues for a year. My situation's a bit different - this colt is my focus and I don't really plan to have my own breeding program - he will stand mostly to approved outside mares if and when his show record warrants him reproducing. If, instead, I owned a bunch of nice mares that I wanted to breed? I'd let someone else put in all of this money! A $1000 or $2000 stud fee sure starts to look like a bargain when you add up those numbers. (And I bet you stallion owners will tell me that people still bitch!)Looking at these costs, it is not so surprising that there are so many stallions out there who haven't done squat and lots of justifications why they haven't done squat! Hey, I am sure it was more affordable to make your horse an AQHA Champion in 1970 than it is now. What was gasoline back then? Let's all get together and have a group cry! Everything is expensive these days and showing is no exception - but you, as a breeder, have options.
First of all, it is easier and cheaper to buy a stallion that already has a show record. As with most things in horses, all of that work and expense does not tend to make the horse an equal amount more valuable. Let's say your stallion goes off to training January 1st and stays in training 11 months including Congress and the World Show. Based upon the estimates my friend gave me, you now have around $50,000 of show expenses into him. Is he going to be worth over $50,000? Probably not. Remember, that doesn't even include his initial value and the money you've spent raising him up to this point. And he can go to one of those big shows and suck. He can just plain have a bad day, no matter how well he has been doing. He's a horse. Now if he does win, and he turns out to be an excellent sire, sure, you can make your money back on breedings eventually. But boy, it's a gamble. (Why do I want to do it then? Hey, I admit - a lot of it is just, once in my lifetime, I want a shot at the Big Win at the Big Show. I'll probably get some judge who goes "hey, that's the horse owned by that bitch who said I shouldn't be breeding my HYPP N/H stallion!" and that'll be the end of that, LOL!)
Secondly, if your goal is a top quality breeding program, you need a variety of bloodlines. You lose that with your own stallion. Eventually the odds are you'll have some of his daughters that were so nice you had to keep them - but now you're back at square one. You can't breed them to him (at least I hope not, don't give me a headache this early in the morning) so you're back to having to send them out/ship semen or buy a second stallion - who may need to be campaigned at the shows.
Third, do you really have the time/facilities/knowledge to stand a stallion? If mine does well at the shows and becomes a breeding stallion, I will most likely stand him at someone else's facility for a few months every spring. It seems to me that it is easier to pay board somewhere that is already set up for collection and has a good repro vet on staff. than do it myself. Have you thought about the liability involved with visiting mares? I have certainly seen/heard of enough lawsuits thanks to accidents that happened to visiting mares. Not to mention the fear that some evil visiting mare will take out your stallion.
I'm very interested in hearing from those of you who own stallions today. Did you campaign them at the shows yoruself? What did it cost, really? What did you accomplish with them (if you don't mind "outing" yourself a bit here)? What breed are they and what discipline(s) were they shown in? Did you, instead, buy a stallion that already had a show record? Do you stand them at stud yourself, at home? Do you accept outside mares or just breed your own? How many mares do you have yourself? Are you still breeding to outside stallions despite owning your own because you need the variety in your program? What problems/challenges have you had with visiting mares? Has it been difficult to deal with mare owners if you only breed approved mares and have had to say no? Do you have certain hard and fast rules, like not breeding HYPP positive mares?
Let's hash out all of the things that go into responsible stallion ownership today. I'll bet it'll be quite an education for those thinking about keeping something a stud, myself included!






111 comments:
We need something more strenuous like the WB's have for Arabs/QHs/Morgans etc.
Show records are a joke. Points. A joke.
Veterinarians and professionals who know confirmation and mechanics need to educate and slice - no pun intended - the junk from the gems.
So many crappy horses. So many breed associations just jump on board to register them. AWS is a joooke.
confOOOORmation. Ugh. type
I do like the idea of stallion approvals - but I'm not sure if they'd be any less political than our current show system. I mean, how are you gonna get someone to do AQHA approvals that flunks them for being HYPP poz, for example? I think you'd have the same problems.
Sometimes I wish all registered stallions in this country went thru a battery of tests like European stallions. To me, there's a certain appeal in knowing that stud is A+, premium Gubmint certified.
I know... I guess I'm a closet Commie. :P
I think it's pretty sad when people send their mares back to be bred when they STILL have foals at side!! Give 'er a rest for a year. Ride her... work those muscles and hopefully her uterus won't fall out from birthing 18 foals in her lifetime....
(I'm pretty sure I'd not want HYPP stallions out there breeding!!! There are plenty of other stallions without that leetle problem... sorry if you've got one, but.)
Is America more fad-prone than Europe? I mean, I can't see any Warmblood becoming a pathetic spur-trained peanut-roller, but what are they prone to over there, besides crocheted fly thingies on their ears?
Julia-
I used to think like you, however, I have since then discovered that it is better not to give your mare time off- the risk of compkications grows much higher for each year in between foals.
AH OK... I don't know all that much about breeding horses, just people. ;)
Now I'm picturing a mare doing her Kiegels....
If i had seen ONE Of those jumping pics I would have thought it was ONE picture of a kid getting ahead of their pony or too far out of the tack, but ALL those pictures looked like that. Maybe my instructor is insane, but she would KILL me if I was that far out of the tack. (That or the HORSE would kill me).
I agree....stallions are a PITA and I wouldn't do it. I do wish Jockey Club would change from Live cover to a "number of covers per year" limit on studs. I am not sure I Would breed my "riding mare" and risk her injury. (She doesn't like when the studs get noisy anway....she might hurt THEM)
(AND I want to put that PRECIOUS studly little Welsh guy in my pocket and take him home!!!!!!!! OK not really, but you get my drift.)
But if you had one of those fugly stallions, you'd know he was 'Oh so gentle!' since they all seem to be marketed as such. Lol
I agree with approvals. I think all horses should go through approvals, actually. To me it would make sure good candidates of the breed would be approved.
I also thing it would help to regulate breeding to one foal to a mare every 2 years, regardless if the foal is aborted, or something happens to it. This would give her body time to recover, as well as regulate. You could purchase permits to breed back immediately for those who really feel it necessary.
I don't know much on breeding in all honesty, but I think what you are doing sounds good.
As far as those pics of the students jumping.... someone once told me 'DON'T EVER JUMP A FENCE AHEAD OF YOUR HORSE'. While it can refer to those times when your horse stops at the fence while you clear it over his shoulder, it also applies to throwing yourself up on his neck over the jump
Ok. I will out myself and even use the name of my stallion so you guys can take a look at him to see that I am not blowing smoke.
My name is Jen Sommer and I breed Welsh ponies. My stallion is Gayfields Silver Sprocket, who is by the same stallion (*SLeight of Hand) as the Welsh pictured in this topic.
I bought Sprocket as a weanling and he is now eight years old. I started showing him as a four-year-old in hand, but he began visiting the trainer at the age of 18 months. His training came along slowly because I knew that if her was going to be my stallion, he would be a long term investment and I did not want to compromise his body just to get under saddle quicker.
Sprocket started wearing tack when he was four, but not actually ridden and worked until he was five. At five and six, he showed on the Welsh circuit and at open shows. He has done OK in halter, but his brillience in seen under saddle. At seven, he entered the dressage ring and this year he will be hearing to the National Pony Cup, a dressage show just for ponies in Cincinnati, OH.
My trainer shows him. I know that I would never be able to bring out of him what my trainer and his assistant have done, so I opted to have him campaigned by a professional. This is not the norm for the Welsh circuit, but I am happy with the choice I made.
Sprocket breeds my two mares on average 2 out of every 3 years and has produced seven purebreds and two half-Welsh for me. He does stand to outside mares, but there are not too many takers because I do not have the facilities to stand him AI the way I would want it done. So he only stands live cover.
I am thrilled to death with his foals and I love Sprocket to pieces. I can't imagine life without him. With that said, I have told countless friends that if I had known the cost involved in owning a stallion, I never would have bought one.
I plan to continue showing him until he is 12 years old. At the current pace, I will end up spending $80,000 to $100,000 on the "privledge" of owning, campaining and advertising a stallion. That is a heck of a lot of money when you consider the weanlings only sell for $3500.
I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never make my money back on Sprocket and when he is gone, I will not own another stallion. I have not kept back any of his fillies (though there is one from this year I would not mind keeping around a while) so do not have to worry about breeding them back to an outside stud. At this stage in the game, I do not want people to think I am only selling my culs.
Feel free to take a look at him. My website is: www.SommerPonyFarm.com
JSommer - thank you. That was exactly the type of post I am hoping for in this thread. You are doing it right, and your guy is a lucky pony. :-)
P.S. Jen is allowed to have her child ride her stallion. Note the presence of (a) tack that fits the pony and child (b) helmet on the child and (c) adult handling holding the pony at all times!
See, folks, if you'd just do that much, you wouldn't get my Bad Parent du Jour award here!
handling=handler
Fingers not communicating with brain!
I have a mini stallion.
He has done absolutely nothing of importance except stand there and look cute, which is his job so I guess that's OK. He's going to drive this summer. He's a pretty color, has a WCH great-grandsire, and thinks he's the nacho cheeze on everyone's chips, which would be enough for most BYB.
Since that's as good as he gets, I use good animal husbandry, and he doesn't get to use his balls. One sucker mare owner could recoup what I bought him for, but that would make three horses with nothing. There's more to good stallion care than breeding them, and even with all the time I've spent in eq repro classes I'm in no hurry to pimp out my buddy. Sorry, I'm kind of an OT stallion owner, but not breeding the ones who haven't earned it yet falls under good stallion management, yes?
If you get VLC to the World Show Fugs, can we come party with you?
It's a lot easier in some ways in a very small breed (purs is 4500 max worldwide, and around 1000 in the US)--too small for breed shows. For us with Lipizzans, it's pretty much open dressage or driving, or nothing. There aren't that many trainers who know what the hell to do with our guys (Michael Poulin is one--he's showing stallions with great success for the guy who owns the traveling road show), so many of us import riders from Vienna during their summer and winter vacations, and clinic with them. I've been doing that, and supplementing with trainers here at home.
I ride my own stallion. One clinician tried to steer me into trainer ride/you write checks, and I hated it. That clinician is past tense. I have a stupendous local trainer who comes in weekly and will show him for me when the time comes--if I can stand not to do it myself.
We do have breeding-stock evaluations. Those are judged like the ones in Austria, and there's politics, oh yeah, but since everybody knows everybody else, and everybody else's horse, it's pretty easy to interpret the scores based on who and where. I got premium scores with my guy and he was used as the conformation demo horse, so I got the straight scoop on where he fits into the standard.
The only annual breed classes for Lipizzans are at Dressage at Devon in PA. I'm in AZ. I think about doing a year of dressage competition and going for some credits the general public will recognize, but I'd rather wait till he's at least fourth level. That takes a while if you do it right. Luckily this is a long-lived and famously sound breed.
Meanwhile he has his breeding approval, and he breeds a very small number of mares each year--I don't push him and we hand-pick his dates. And I ride the heck out of him. He's my favorite riding horse in the world (and that's saying a lot, because my mares are great, too).
So, in the breed, he has his approval, and he has foals on the ground who demonstrate that the judge wasn't nuts to approve him. He has a regular job as a riding horse, he does his lessons and clinics, and he'll show when he hits the level we're aiming for.
This is fairly common. Some owners campaign their stallions--there's an "S" judge and breeder doing well with hers in CA, and there are others scattered around, notably at Tempel Lipizzans in Chicago and the aforementined roadshow group based in Florida. I personally don't consider show credits when choosing outside stallions for my mares. There's some crap getting good scores, and some very good stallions not being campaigned for various valid reasons.
It's a different set of parameters, but there is a clear breed standard and we learn to judge our horses against it. Nobody's getting rich in this breed, that's for sure. Even top show stallions are lucky to book one or two Lipizzan mares off the farm in a season. My personal philosophy is, breed a few very good foals with homes assured before the mare meets the stallion, and treat the stallion like any other horse I own. He's a riding horse first, then a breeding animal. There is some hassle involved in keeping him, but nothing I don't mind dealing with. He's a nice horse before he's a stallion.
I just spent all day yesterday taking 2 colts to be gelded.
Two weeks ago my third colt was cut.
One of these colts is absolutely stallion quality. One of the the other two has a real possibility of being a top quality stallion. The third, just good quality.
Why were they all gelded?
Look around. Read this blog.
This was my once in a lifetime for breeding, I will always be responsible for them, and I'm done. Now I get to enjoy, raise, train, love and pay for it all.
FWI I leased the stallion and stood him here and did all the breedings myself, in hand.
Lovely stallion, was very happy to see him leave.
i want to squeeze the little welshie!!!
i am always amazed at the number of crappy stallions advertised around here. many have no show record because "shows are expeeeeeeeeensive. we can't affoooooord it." in my opinion, if you don't have the time or money to take your stud to a couple shows then you either should have bought him with a show record or you shouldn't be breeding him. not that show records are the end all be all (if he's an awesome foxhunter or ranch horse then shows aren't what mare owners will be looking at, of course) but they give you something to evaluate that is at least semi- uniform.
as for standing your stud at your farm, there's no way in hell i would EVER consider it. (not that i have a stud or will at any time in the near future. my BO insists on a testicle free barn.) the liability alone for visiting mares scares me. a friend's horse was sent to be bred before she (the friend) owned her. the mare apparently had a different idea about where this date was going and ended up double- barreling the stallion in the chest. he died two days later from in. like i said, no way in hell.
We used to have a morgan stallion. He was a great looking stud with good bloodlines (by UVM Flash). He had a small show record but nothing major. It was kind of funny, because his get all did VERY well in the showring. Some of his foals ended up jumpers at spruce meadows, some ended up in large morgan shows, and some ended up at some big driving competitions. I dont think a single one of them did not end up in the showring in some sort of discipline. We mostly bred our own mares and sold the foals... occasionally had an outside mare come in. Eventually, we found the market was getting flooded... the foals weren't selling, so we decided to geld the stallion. He's now an old man enjoying himself out in a field and going on the occasional trail ride. We only own one of his foals now.
We stand a Criollo stallion in Scotland. Prior to import he was placed in "La Marcha" the South American stallion grading! After a month in a paddock with no work (this ensures that it is genetically the best horse that wins, not the best trained one), these horses have to cover 750Km in 14 days (at a minimum speed of 10km an hour) they carry 17.5 stone (245lb) and recieve no medical intervention or feeding, other than what they graze of the pampas. If you complete that, for my money you deserve to have your balls!!! Now in Scotland he plays as one of my boyfriends string of polo ponies - so he's actually saving us money (O.K humour me there!!!) He will cover four or five of our own mares and we will consider outside mares.
>>Sorry, I'm kind of an OT stallion owner, but not breeding the ones who haven't earned it yet falls under good stallion management, yes?<<
ABSOLUTELY!
>>If you get VLC to the World Show Fugs, can we come party with you?<<
Yes. We will get shitfaced drunk and TP the stalls of people who knowing breed HYPP positive horses. ;-)
I do not own a stallion, but I did manage a barn that had a breeding stallion.
This is interesting because at first his owner was a responsible stallion owner... then she wasn't. Things went from great to horrible in less than 2 and a half years.
The stallion in question was a very nice Oldenburg. He was destined to be an awesome lower-level dressage stallion as his ringbone problems wouldn't allow him to hold up to the high physical demands of the upper levels. He was indeed breeding quality in terms of conformation and STELLAR personality, but he had the ringbone as did his sire. That to me is a major MAJOR turn-off, but he was highly praised at his stallion test in Denmark and approved in like a billion books. To each his own I guess.
His owner, whom shall be called Batshit Crazy Lady (BCL), had him imported to my trainer which was the best move she wcould have done. That next year (2005) he was the Cosequin Stallion Champion of the Northeast. He was 100% sound, healthy, happy. Life was good. He was an AWESOME horse to handle. He did demonstrations at the Equine Affaire, he went showing, he was out and about. He was doing so great and I loved him.
He was also super easy to collect. He went right out, got cleaned, did his thing, and went back. Never put a hoof out of line. He was the vet's favorite. Good manners, good semen, good stallion.
BCL then decided to breed a couple of the junky Oldenburg mares she had to her stallion. No one knew why, she didn't even know why. (I say junky as in they were crap WBs. Fugly always talks about horses having nice lines but still being absolute shit? That was these two. I used to call them "The Idiot Twins". Nice riding horses? Yeah, they are nothing special, but you could have a nice little horse to ride. Breeding quality examples of the breed? Hell no.) But they were knocked up. Great job there, moron.
Then BCL flew off the deep end. She fired my trainer, moved all 37 (I'm exaggerating, but not much) of her horses down to her tiny barn with poor turnout space which I was running. The stallion got shipped of to a really rough German trainer who was told to "take him up the levels". Baaad idea.
The stallion came down to our barn in the spring to breed (all her horses as no one wanted to breed to him) and he was lame and miserable. BCL wouldn't let anyone work him and he was barely allowed out of his stall. He was miserable. He became nasty. I hated him. He charged me in his stall, he was aggressive at feeding, he was a complete 180 from when my trainer had him.
He was bred to every horse with a hole that the BCL owned. Still no outside breedings. He was still lame and still just a nasty little shit because he was bored and he was sore.
I took him to a collection once during the miserable phase. He nearly killed the vet. He was unhinged. Let's just say we were all glad to have helmets on. He was jumping on anything he could and striking at anything he couldn't. It also took him three tries on the dummy to produce any semen, and what he finally produced was too poor of quality to be usable.
It is AMAZING what good versus bad stallion ownership can do. This stallion went from having a great future as a STELLAR lower-level horse, to a miserable fuck being pushed up the levels. For what? 100 foals she can't sell? Nice. Way to ruin a horse.
It's sad because he was an awesome horse.
hm.... can we just get caution tape instead of TP? or maybe Danger: Do Not Cross?
Yay for putting Dream Come True Farm on here! I go on their website when I want to make myself feel better about my equitation. It seems like their training philosophy is that if you haven't died yet, you can go higher. Urgh.
jsommer said...
"Ok. I will out myself and even use the name of my stallion so you guys can take a look at him to see that I am not blowing smoke."
*gasp* Sprocket is gorgeous, and what a disposition! Thanks for taking a risk and sharing. I'm drooling all over myself (not an unusual state, but for good reason this time). Best of luck on his continuing show career. No smoke, indeed.
I am a stallion owner. I came into it reluctantly, but now he's here, I wouldn't give him up for anything.
He is a Miniature stallion, a true blue roan, and an own son of Hemlock Brooks Egyptian King. He was bred & stood at stud at a BNF, who sold him to another BNF & turned around & bought him back! He was never shown as a youngster, despite bing as near perfect conformation for a Mini- he was the wrong color at the time- everyone wanted the true grey EK sons to show.
He has produced several WCH & Nat. Champion foals, and all are carbon copies of him- cat earred & typey as hell.
I have started showing him- he is 20 yrs old & placed 3 out of a big class at his first show. He is super smart & loves figuring out the trail patterns. I wish I had gotten him when he had been young enough to drive.
All of his foals have sold for over $5000 before I got him- I have not bred him since I got him despite the fact folks are calling me begging to breed their mares. Right now there are too many junk horses out there for $50 and the ding dongs around here who don't care about quality breed them all day long, knocking out my market in nothing flat.
My biggest stallion expense is finding the mares for myself that I want to breed to him!
I have to agree with the first poster. There should be keuring system, or something like that.
But back to the stallion owning issue. Fugs, you forgot to mention in detail one big thing: how many people know how to handle a stallion, really? This is a level of horsemanship that is simply unappreciated by most people. Sure, a nice stallion who isn't too rank,and who has been handled properly since birth can be handled by a good horseperson. But a stallion of average (stallion) temperment cannot. This takes special skills and really good fencing. Even if you're not doing the breeding, it's beyond the skills of the average horseperson.
Kind of off topic but some more pictures of kids and horses that'll make you want to scream!
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/grd/661624651.html
My 4-H leader had an awesome little Arabian stallion that she'd acquired as a weanling. He'd had a decent show career in his youth, covered a few local mares for good owners, and she did EVERYTHING on him, including trails & then endurance. He was always, ALWAYS a good boy.
You sometimes see very special relationships (put away your dirty mind, now) between stallions and their chosen people. She had him for nearly 30 years. She will not talk about his death.
I like it... a HORSE first, a stud second.
"I also thing it would help to regulate breeding to one foal to a mare every 2 years, regardless if the foal is aborted, or something happens to it. This would give her body time to recover, as well as regulate. "
:) Animals don't work this way. As someone already posted, skipping years increases the occurrence of problems. What SHOULD NOT be done is breeding back on foal heat. The foal heat helps complete the post-foaling cleaning process; I know there was at least one study that showed a strong relationship between severe infections and foal-heat breedings.
O.T. one of the Kentucky Derby horses went down, broke both front ankles and was euthanised immediately according to our local news, so sad...
It was the only filly...Eight Belles who went down. She finished 2nd.
Hey, this topic just reminded me - would someone with APHA membership please look up a stallion for me? He stood at my old barn for a while and was in really questionable ownership at the time. I know he got to a good barn in CA eventually but don't know what ultimately happened to him. Reg. name was Okie Jewpauls Hope. Love to know if he is alive and who has him if he is. Super, super nice horse.
Danse Macabre, I didn't know which one, that's so horrible. You know, I can never watch racing. But, the vet said the injury was so bad that quick euthanasia was the only way to go.
demonqh, stallions are horses. YES, you need safe fencing (but then, you should have safe fencing for all horses, although for mares and geldings it generally can be lower.)
I would not own a stallion because I do not like the liability - what if I fall off and he attacks a ridden mare and... not worth the risk to me - I don't intend to breed. (And I don't see how anyone would breed out of a facility they don't own). But I've ridden and handled a number of stallions - they're not my favorites, but ultimately, they're just horses. Horses that need skillful handling, but so do many horses, and all horses deserve it.
Telling people they ought to be afraid of stallions is wrong - they need to be aware, yes, and doubly yes - but when people are afraid of stallions they're far more likely to treat them badly. Or they find that their stallion does not conform to the myth of the fire-breathing monster and become complacent.
My gelding ranks a lot higher on the 'needs skilled handler' and 'will show stallion characteristics' scale than a number of uncut horses I've known - which only proves that stallion handling skills are useful to everyone.
And on the continent, it's not uncommon to cut horses late even if they're never intended (and never used) as stallions; but that's only a problem when you make it one.
fuglyhorseoftheday:
On the topic of BYB and now Eight Belles, can we please discuss the BYB of the TB industry?
I can name three men within shooting distance of my farm that breed at least 15 foals a year to race.
Not a damn one has won anything worth a shit.(Oh well - they sell the foals for enough to pay for more BREEDING!!!)
I only watched it to watch the horses...if that makes sense....there aren't any horses nearby and I don't and never have owned one...I don't get any horse-themed channels on tv right now...so I watch em when I can.
Be glad you didn't watch it. It was disgusting. Not that they showed it happening, oh GOD no! They only showed a safe, overhead angle. Just the whole sad situation...she ran her heart out and tried so hard to win...and it killed her. And for what? They're so evil to race the babies. Makes me sick.
I watched the race, and Eight Belles looked uncomfortable coming down the stretch -- she threw her head up a bit and was fighting to get outside, running over her outside shoulder a bit. I'm guessing she pulverized her fetlocks in the final yards of the race -- finishing on two legs and a heart. She dropped hard as soon as she was pulled up, and never got up.
I KNEW better than to watch it...
I own two stallions, father and son. I also owned the sire to the older stallion and knew his grandsire. All of these horses have shown, some Nationally, some just regionally. All worked and showed AFTER starting their careers as breeding stallions started.
My current senior stallion was 6th in the Nation in Games. He has also won halter, HIH, HUS and whole bunch of other stuff locally. I have exported his foals to Germany and Italy.
My junior stallion has HIH points and is starting his career as a stock horse. We don't train our horses for riding until late 3/early 4 so they do get a late start in the show ring. BUT we also usually end up showing them until they are 20 or so. We breed for a middle of the road conformation that does not "scream" that the horse is locked into a particular discipline. I demand versatility, no one trick ponies here.
I do AI and hand breeding. I do not pasture breed. Both stallions are trained to standing collect so there is less chance of injury with a dummy mount.
Why do I own two stallions? Because both are a very careful blending of the bloodlines I want, and have NO relationship to most of the modern lines out there. I preserve them for MY use, I don't use their bloodlines as JUST an excuse to keep them stallions.
Neither stallion has HYPP or Herda. They do not carry SCIDs, have never sired a parrot mouth or monorchid.
They are both dun factor and colored, so there is that marketability to consider AFTER all other elements are looked at. The younger stallion is UCDavis tested homozygous black.
I do have some daughters of the senior stallion and since they are of breeding age, I will probably start looking for a good stallion that would cross well, for when they finish showing. I am particularly in love with one of the fillies and think she's my next all around horse.
http://www.trinityapp.com/assets/pics/bijouxlope
I don't suffer as much as some stallion owners do because I usually do my own training*. I also have the facilities to keep stallions and can USDA quarantine on site.
My daughter has shown my senior stallion at Expos and open shows. He is BEYOND well mannered and most people don't even realize he's a stallion until they look under him, or the announcer mentions it. He can haul in a two horse trailer with a mare and not be an idiot. He does not ever act "breedy" under saddle or with a bit in his mouth.
The junior stallion is really good, but still a teenager so sometimes he loses focus, but he doesn't get stupid.
http://www.trinityapp.com/stallions.htm
Anyone can bash away, I don't have anything to hide. I know both stallions are well behaved, well conformed and good working horses. If they never bred any mares again they would still be all of the above.
* I did send the junior stallion to a reining trainer simply because I don't have the type of arena to safely teach reining. I was BEYOND Pissed off to find out she took my carefully nurtured and bosal trained stallion and stuck him in a curb bit with a running martingale. If she didn't know how to work a bosal horse she should have told me, because I STRESSED it to her that he was started with a bosal. Being from southern AZ I understand cabellero training, evidently the east coast reining trainers don't.
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/ (updated 4-30-2008)
I don't understand why horses can't be left in a bosal indefinitely, if they work well that way....
Some of those handmade bosals and... mecates? are gorgeous!
I've also admitted before that I'm a romantic, but true collection + a pretty long-maned neck + bosal = beautiful.
I will confess to being a former stallion owner—twice! But not a third time. I learned.
My first was a pretty little black Quarter Horse with chrome on all corners, a beautiful wide blaze ... and a tiny 2 inch belly spot up by his belly button. This was back in the day that you'd lose your QH registration but because you could not see the white from a standing position, you couldn't get Paint papers either.
I showed him at halter a couple of times in very small shows; he was a Foundation-bred horse (a couple of crosses to Leo, which explained his chrome) so he didn't do so hot at halter. He then went to a "reputable" trainer of snaffle bit and reined cow horses who started him in the spring of his 3rd year. I'd agreed to pay for the horse's feed, vet, etc. and to enter the horse in a large West Coast reined cow horse futurity and pay the trainer's costs while there, because this horse just "had the best spin of any horse I have ever ridden, so I have to have him there" (trainer's words).
A couple of months later I go check on him; the premium hay and grains and supplements and blankets and supplies I'd been buying for poor Stockings went to the trainers "other" snaffle bit horse. My horse was standing in a small stall, dirty and wooly and entirely too skinny, while the other colt was groomed and fat and wearing my colt's blanket! I took him home the next day with about 90 days training on him.
Then I got hurt and couldn't ride for a couple of years, so he enjoyed himself with my Paint and QH mares (and a couple of friends' grade mares) and his babies ended up decent little ranch horses (I actually got two registrable overos out of him, one from a QH and the other from my Paint mare, as well as a tobiano out of my Paint mare). Still, I couldn't take this guy out of my barn because of that belly spot.
So I gelded him. Most of his babies stayed in their birth home and ended up being wonderful 4-H or ranch horses, and were long-lived and sound as well. I owned him until he died.
I then tried my hand with my Paint mare who was good at gymkhana, loved chasing cattle and getting me off of her back. I figured what I'd get out of her would be a decent little athletic horse I could do pretty much anything with except for halter. I had the opportunity to breed her to one of the last remaining sons of Three Bars. The stallion manager was pretty sure whatever foal I'd get from the union would be colored and marked like the dam; something like 90 percent of this chestnut horse's foals were the color of the mother. It cost me $750 stud fee (late 1970s), vetting and of course mare care.
I got my Paint. Halter broke him as an itty bitty baby, taught him manners and took him to a couple of shows knowing he wasn't a halter horse but wanted to get his hoofs wet as a youngster, putting up with trailering and the noise and motion of a horse show. He was as calm as you'd have wanted a stud colt to be. Stood for hoof trimming, loaded in a trailer like it was his personal playground, let me clip him without a twitch, lunged and liked it, and I was able to saddle him in preparation for his career as a saddle horse.
The spring of his 2-year old year (and he was exactly 24 months at the time), he nosed open his stall and made a mad dash at my QH mare who was conveniently in heat. He was midair when she kicked him and I heard a crack, and he was immediately lame. There was a fracture in his high humerus, with a half-pinky sized bone chip that was eventually surgically removed. However, whenever I tried to have him started (by that time he was 4), he'd come up sore.
He'd been bred to a pair of QH mares and the resulting foals were solids. I guess he was following in his dad's footsteps, with most foals taking the dam's color.
So what I had was a stallion I could not promote because he could not be ridden, and worse yet, I couldn't get color from him. Out of 15 foals, 3 were tobiano—and the dam of 2 of the tobianos was herself a tobiano (and probably homozygous, this was before blood typing was cheap and easy). The other was a mongrel nondescript pony that stayed pastured with him to keep him happy; the pony's owners had two daughters who would no doubt use any baby that came from the union (which was the case).
By this time I threw in the towel, gelded him and he became an attractive pasture ornament.
I would not recommend stallion ownership unless you have a bottomless trust fund, a class-A facility, a couple of mares of your own, and the patience of a saint, for when things don't go your way. Because frequently they don't! Not to mention you have to be a bit thick-skinned because no matter how many "good" qualities you think your boy has, there's another horse within 50 miles with plenty of better qualities than your fellow. And horse people talk! (duh!)
I won't watch horse racing of any kind anymore, bless that sweet little mare! The horses are beautiful but everything about that industry just sucks and is against anything and everything I think I horse should be doing—especially a young one!
I watched the derby, and you could tell in the stretch run Eight Bells was hurting. Her stride shortened up, and normally you would think she was tired, but I watched her run in another race, she is very strong in the stretch, a lot like Big Brown who won. I think she was done in by the track. She was checked a lot and that causes strain, but that track is still dirt, not synthetic. The combo of the hard track and all the checks, plus her own fighting heart did the damage. Compound fractures on both front ankles. That tells me they cracked, and she kept running anyway until they shattered. I think they plan on synthetic for next years derby. Not soon enough for Eight Belles. What a lovely girl, such a shame.
Well I do own a stallion. Fugs herself was kind enough not to rip him to shreds, haha But by most of your standards, he probably is not "stellar". By Alaska standards, he is yards above the crowd of ill tempered, poor mannered, no show history, marginal pedigree junk that is advertising for breedings(and getting them!)
In almost eight years, I have two registered foals from mares with show records (both state champs) One was a free breed for the lease on the other. I ended up literally giving away the resulting filly.
I don't show. No one calls for breeding, despite going to our local stallion parade for four or five years. I have spent many 1000s on advertising, but I don't compete him under saddle. He's an old pro at shows, with his ROM and being a ROM sire-but when people started gossiping about how I must have been drugging him to keep him so quiet....I gave up :(
I would rather breed a quality mare for nothing, than a fugly for $5000. And I have turned down plenty the first two years. Then a large influx of PMU horses arrived and it was cheaper to buy a ready made foal than breed your own. Just after that, a local vet got into repro, and she is affordable and *excellent* at it. She does AI too, but I would have to board him at her place-and chances are he would not sell many bookings-his proven lines are way too out of fashion for the App world today.
So there he sits, up at my barn. I am perfectly happy to keep Lardbutt until the end. I enjoy his personality, and he is pleasure to handle, and ride.
as for the stallion topic. I have ridden and trained other people's stallions, have raised one of my own. (until I gelded him at 3, still really a baby at that age) I have no qualms about having, riding, handling a stallion, but the cost is a killer. There are so many quality stallions out there, only a fed ex truck away, why go to the expense of all the showing, etc?
Maybe someday, when I am retired, and I see a spectacular colt, or breed one and think I have the time and money to have some fun, and see how far we can go. It's not likely since I think my preferred breed org is a bunch of Asshats. (TWH)
1. Poor damn filly, what talent. Ok...how about we all get together and sponsor a 1.5 mi race for 5-6 yo maidens? If enough people chuck in $100 a piece...make it worth while...
1a...Oh boy folks... Barbaro has a 2 yo brother in training somewhere no doubt. Maybe if they get a repeat next year they'll leave the yearling out to pasture an extra year.
2. Fugs, if you get VLC to the world show, for God sake take your camera and take pictures of the horror that ensues in the Amatuer hunter hack, or open for that matter. I've been to the AQHA wc once (Congress several times-close to home), on the University judging team, and as the only eventer/dressager in the group spent most of the trip in open mouthed astonishment. I saw people schooling horses over fences in GERMAN MARTINGALES.
I don't have a stallion, but I'd be happy to share what my mare's pregnancy has cost. She is an American Cream Draft Horse and I had to do AI since there are no stallions close enough to me to consider. I had a choice of two studs (that is the total number of studs that ship semen, oh how I laughed). My rough guess is that all costs - stud fee, shipping/freezing, AI, and vet checkups since (she is due any day) will cost me roughly 2000, with only 500 of that the stud fee. I'll have a look at my records and break down the costs and post the result. Obviously, if you owned the stud, you would still have the vet fees but I thought it might be instructional for those who have not bred via AI.
Well, I finally decided to quit lurking, register a user name, and come out of the woodwork. Let me first say, Fugly - kudos to you for what you are accomplishing with this blog!
OK, so I own a Morgan stallion. I bred him, raised him, trained him, stand him. I did not INTEND to stand a stallion for my smallish breeding program, but along he came and everyone kept telling me it would be a shame to geld him... I decided to give him an opportunity to prove himself, both athletically and temperament wise, and he has never once indicated that he doesn't deserve his nuts. So, 16 years later, he's still got 'em.
My stallion is my primary "using" horse. I trail ride him, show him, pony colts-in-training (and mares and fillies) off of him, gymkhana him, and... occasionally, show him. He is trained to ride english (pleasure and dressage); western (pleasure, speed events, cattle penning, etc.) and drive (cart, sleigh, kids on toboggan). My kids (12 & 17 yr old accomplished equestrians) handle him, groom him, load him in the trailer for me, and occasionally ride him at home. (They don't so much as go in the pasture with the horses without a helmet on, and are always supervised, no matter WHAT horse). This horse, with or without his testicles, would be my "perfect horse".
His show record is…. shall we say…. minimal. Because I refuse to do the things that seem to be required for a win at a breed show (built up hooves, ginger, plastic bags on whips, two handlers in halter), our few forays into those rings have been disappointing. Yet the same horse who can’t catch a second look from a breed show judge can and has won a halter class of 25 in an open show, where the judge made a point of explaining that he was judging based on each individuals breed standard, and this horse was the closest of all in the class to his own breed standard. He has won dozens of classes in all disciplines at such shows, but that means little as a “performance record”. Which matters little to me.
I am a “small time breeder” who has little interest in producing the type of horse that wins at breed shows, though several of our produce have gone on to do so. My goal is to breed, raise and train quality Morgans who can go on and do whatever their owners wish – recreational horses – and make their new owners as happy as our Morgans make us. Our production levels are “low” these days – one or two foals every year or two, most of which are raised up and started under saddle before being sold. Those sales don’t make a lot of profit when you factor in ALL the costs, but they do cover the cost of what my daughters and I consider to be a fantastic, “dream” lifestyle. This lifestyle has helped me raise two amazing kids who would make any parent proud.
That said, I am a strong voice AGAINST stallion ownership for most people. Very few can handle the challenge, either with their skills, or their facility, and the horse will suffer. I have always said that to be allowed to “appear in public”, my stallion must be the best behaved horse there, and to make that possible, several factors are important. He lives outside 24/7 in a spacious paddock (minimum 1 acre – 5 rail steel fencing with inside perimeter hotwire), he has a job, he is socialized, not isolated, and often pastures with mares AND foals, with at least one mare in with him full time, year round. Though he is well trained and well behaved, I NEVER forget that he is a stallion, and there are “lines drawn in the sand” that he may not cross. Like the old saying goes: “you can tell a gelding, ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion” – ego plays a big part of their personalities, and it takes a certain kind of trainer to get that personality working with you without making an enemy or becoming too heavy handed, both of which I’ve seen.
Outside mares…. not so much any more. In fact, I haven’t advertised him in several years though he has a fan club wherever we go, and I still get phone calls for his service, but I only pick the mares that will make the best crosses these days. I have always been particular, and have turned away fugly mares in the past, but I used to try to make a bit of money with his stud fees. Hard to do when there are at least 15 other decent Morgan stallions within a 15 mile radius!!! And not worth the trouble anymore.
Mine is an effort born out of passion. I know the joy of owning “the perfect horse”, and am glad to be able to share that with others through his bloodlines and prepotency. I’ll never be famous, or rich, but the Morgan I love and believe in will live on, and I’ve had a hand in that.
I'm very interested in hearing from those of you who own stallions today. Did you campaign them at the shows yourself?
I currently own 2 breeding stallions and 2 stallion prospects. The 2 breeding stallions are both breeding stock paints that I campaigned myself in the PAC halter program. I also went to bred shows, but unfortunately no other breeding stock horses were shown, hence no open SPB show record. I hope to improve my program with the stallion prospects, one is a yearling minimal overo, the other is a tobiano son of one of my current stallions. If all works out well these prospects will replace my current stallions.
The two stallion prospects I will also campaingn myself and hope to achieve more. One is a yearling, that I am currently showing that stood 7th in the APHA World in Amateur Weanling Stallions. He is currently earning points in APHA open halter and PAC credits. The second is a suckling, I'll fit him and see how he does in the ring.
What did it cost, really? What did you accomplish with them
I fit my own halter horses, which costs approximately $200 a month per horse in feed and supplements. Shows can cost anywhere from $35 1 class, 1 judge to $500 for two classes 8 judges and stall fees That's not counting the gas to get there. Of course I go to multiple shows a year and not every show you earn a point.
(if you don't mind "outing" yourself a bit here)? What breed are they and what discipline(s) were they shown in? Did you, instead, buy a stallion that already had a show record?
I show mostly APHA. I did try to purchase a stallion with a halter ROM, however I couldn't convenience the bank that a horse was worth $30,000!
Do you stand them at stud yourself, at home? Do you accept outside mares or just breed your own? How many mares do you have yourself?
I stand my stallions myself at home. I rarely accept outside mares, when I do they are from show families that will show the foal. I own 8 mares.
Are you still breeding to outside stallions despite owning your own because you need the variety in your program?
I try not to. That’s why I have two stallions currently, they compliment one another. If I need more variety later down the road I will purchase another stallion to compliment my mares. Much cheaper to replace one than many.
What problems/challenges have you had with visiting mares?
MANNERS! Both BAD mannered and mares possessing NO manners at all!
Has it been difficult to deal with mare owners if you only breed approved mares and have had to say no?
Yes! But, they’ll get over it and my stallion’s reputation will not be damaged. It is always the stallions fault you know, doesn’t matter that the foal looks EXACTLY like it’s dam, it’s the stallions fault that he sired such a fuggly foal!
Do you have certain hard and fast rules, like not breeding HYPP positive mares?
I started standing stallions in 1990 with a grandson of Impressive (N/N of course) and have stood numerous stallions since all Impressive bred. I have yet bred an HYPP positive mare, don’t expect I will either.
I have a stallion. But he is not likely going to keep his manly bits.
He is by Amiral who was a top Dressage horse ridden by Kyra Kurklund in 2 olympics and one world cup (where he came 4th) And out of my Irish Tb mare. Aven is tiny. No idea why but he is 4 this year (and we are just starting him this spring) and stands 14.1 1/2. He is keeping his balls till he is mature to aid him in staying under 14.2-can you imagine what an FEI dressage pony he would make?!
But he won't keep his testicles because he is a little over at the knee and who knows what he will throw in terms of height?
i bought a stallion. he has offspring in South Carolina and Kentucky. but i had him gelded as soon as i bought him!
Ahhh, Dream Come True. Typical bad LI barn. No offense, but head out to Long Island if you want to see shit like that - at pretty much EVERY barn, though central LI seems to be the worst. Kids jumping shit they have no business to be jumping. Disgusts me every time I'm out there.
I have a stallion that I have shown in all events from dressage to western pleasure and everything in-between for 14 years. He's currently 18 - sound and tough as nails. He's never had any soundness issues, never had any hock injections, requires no special medications, etc. Not a bump, mark, or blemish on him. In fact, he is also a competitive trail champion. I trained and showed him all myself - no trainer, no lessons. I travel to all the shows alone - not even family to help me. I've shown for 34 years - all alone. I do all my own work ( from baling hay to shoeing ) to keep costs as low as possible. He has 22 world & reserve world championships in all events. It can be done on a budget. I bred 2 of my own mares last year to an outside stallion ( one of the top ones in the nation ) because they were the best match, instead of to the stallion that is in the stall next to them, which I could have breed to them for free. Their foals are just fantastic this year, but because of the current market, and the fact that I never want to part with my foals, I doubt I will breed them back this year. And, I just had my colts all gelded.
i love that welsh stallion
Gayfields breeds excellent horses. My Gunner is a product of their breeding program. Everything they own is trained and shown then it gets to reproduce. I love ponies and they get a bad rap.
I like the 100 day test for stallions. Gives you an idea that the horse is a performer. I like that better than points or anything else.
Dancing Horse,
Matt McLaughlin is another trainer that has worked with Lippizans but he is now mainly training Andalusians. He used to train for the Lippizan show.
"...the horror that ensues in the Amatuer hunter hack, or open for that matter. I've been to the AQHA wc once (Congress several times-close to home), on the University judging team, and as the only eventer/dressager in the group spent most of the trip in open mouthed astonishment."
Yeah, since we only live 100 miles away, and my dad's cousin is a breeder/trainer who often has one of his former babies showing, we usually make the annual trek to Congress. The trade show is loads of fun (love those custom saddles... WOW!!!), as is the reining and working cow horse stuff, but.... the WP & so-called "Hunt Seat" classes are sooooo cringeworthy!!!!
Seriously, it's silly to dress up like Tammy Wynette and get on your sad robo-horse.... I hope that the whole "headset" (what a horrid, horrid word, exemplifies the ingorance about how a horse MOVES) is getting better like it's supposed to be!!
The "Hunt Seat" horses are pretty much WP horses in Kimberwickes *snort* going slightly faster....
My dad's cousin's last baby I saw was a GORGEOUS Appendix horse, Duplicated Deck bred out of a Bold Ruler mare, and the only horse in the ring with real potential, I thought. First of all, he was 100% sound since his owner didn't chase ribbons all summer, and he moved correctly. Of course he didn't win, though he placed in the top 10.
I'm going to stick my neck out further and make some AQHA enemies I'm sure, but... OK.... here is some WRONGness for you: http://www.huntseathorses.com/
If any of those horses can jump higher than 2'6" I will eat my hat.
I was Graphic Designer on the Horse Circuit News rag briefly a looooooooong time ago, and there was this stud whose selling point was "Posty-legged babies." So there's more wrongness for you....
Oh, and whoever on here is standing that cute Appaloosa (http://www.trinityapp.com/stallions/01.html) he's a DOLLBABY!
Looks like a real old-timey appy, not a QH with sprinkles.
I do like QHs, really, my best mare EVER was one, but geez... enough!!!
is the 3 ring elevator bit the only one available in LI?
Anastacia, I have friends that raise American Cream Drafts, I love the breed.
Julie wrote:
>Oh, and whoever on here is standing that cute Appaloosa (http://www.trinityapp.com/stallions/01.html) he's a DOLLBABY!
Thank you! I appreciate the comments. He's got a lot of TB in him and really looks more like a field hunter type TB than a QH.
I showed his daddy in dressage and three day eventing. He was a chstnut marbled roan. Took forever for the dressage judges to figure out he was Appaloosa and not fleabit grey!
Tracy Meisenbach
www.trinityapp.com
http://thehorsediary.blogspot.com/ (updated 4-30-2008)
I owned a stallion once, just long enough to get him healthy enough to geld. He spent a nice life as a lovely gelding :)
But my Gramps stood a TWH stallion when I was a kid. It cost a lot, even then, though I couldn't tell you the $$$ today. Separate fencing, etc. Gramps stood to his own mares and as he put it 'a few outside mares a year' to pay for some of the stallion's upkeep.
That being said, that stallion was not shown, but he was expected to pay his way as a working cow horse. You could rope, cut, work fences, whatever, off that horse. Gramps expected that stallion to behave like a normal, civilized, trained horse at all times. You could ground tie him or trailer him with mares, work him alongside mares, etc. He understood completely what was acceptable behaviour when and where.
btw, even though Gramps bred TWHs, I never saw a 'big lick' horse except on tv. His were regular horses, with great feet, and a ride to die for.
And, you know, I think back on it now, and Gramps sold every horse he wanted to for the prices he put on them and had people waiting for the babies. Huh -- you think that meant he was breeding a nice quality using horse?
What a concept.
I've been lurking on this board since it began, and have yet to comment. However the equitation (or lack thereof) of the students on that page DEMAND some attention. If you click on their names you can see more pictures. Ouch. I'm an instructor part time myself. Ask any of my students... we do no stirrup work and bareback for at least a month or two leading up to even our first crossrail. And I thought I sucked when I was a kid (thanks to lack of quality instruction)... yikes.
I'm also a stallion owner and plan on campaigning my own stallion, if for nothing else simply the fact that I love the idea of showing every weekend. I've never had the opportunity to do so, so if my guy remains quality and doesn't get his balls chopped off that will be the way to go. He's turning three at the end of this month and is currently enjoying growing up sans rider.
Here is another quality "pony" stallion. This is the sire of my Icelandic:
http://www.icelandichorsesmidwest.com/breedingfarm/index.htm#2
I was honored with an invite to ride him when I went to see my colt before I bought him. First time I've ever ridden a stallion--he was, as the owners say in their listing, a gentleman, very responsive, easy to ride and work with. His evaluation scores from Iceland are very high--I wish that American horses were evaluated like many horses are in Europe. I wonder if that would make a difference in the quality of horses in the US.
jsommer, nicely done! Not only do you have a beautiful stallion, but I also appreciated the pix of the small child on him, *with* a helmet on, and *with* an adult right there! Perfect! =D
the cheapest way to get your own horse.....buy it.
bought my mare for a song. Daughter of a Superior Western Pleasure sire and G'daughter of a a reserve WC Halter horse.
what I paid for her couldn't have even come close to the cost of keeping her mamma for a year, let alone what it would cost to own the stallion.
and I got the gender, color, size and amount of training I wanted.
Ab so lutely the cheapest way to get the horse I wanted
L said...
I have a mini stallion.
I too bought a mini colt at 5 months old. He has a fabulous bloodline and is a blue roan with black points. At the age 8 months old he got his balls chopped off.
Why? Even though I own 2 full size mares and have 3 other geldings there was no fear of him breeding. What I have seen happen with miniature stallions and colts is that they go crazy from not being able to breed to the mares around them in full heat. Their dumb ass owners think that it is cute to have a miniture stallion trying to be head honcho of the head. They have no idea what it is doing to the horse mentally. My word to all miniature horse owners of stallions or colts - if you don't plan on getting a WINNING show record on that mini get him gelded pronto. Don't be so damned cheap.
Hey Fugly, I have the info you were requesting on that paint horse "Okie Jewpauls Hope". He's listed as alive :) I have the owner's name and info. If you want it leave a msg on my blog and I'll get it to you.
My boy was still a stud when I bought him a little over 4yrs ago. I could "hardship" register him w/ ApHC (he has all 4 characteristics), but his lineage is unknown so it would have been silly to keep him intact. First thing I did was call the vet out to cut him. He's an amazing gelding, but IMO would have been a mediocre stud. He's now 8yrs old, showing L1 dressage & scoring consistantly 68-69%; we also have 860 endurance miles (every step of both ridden together!). Just the shows & rides so far this year have run me $730 in entry fees alone... diesel isn't getting any cheaper either! This horse has helped me get my name out locally & gain many clients; I can't imagine trying to market him as a stud as well. Hubby briefly thought it would be a good idea to stand him as a stud... then I quoted him some #s for advertising & liability insurance!
>>>>> I'm very interested in hearing from those of you who own stallions today. Did you campaign them at the shows yoruself? What did it cost, really? What did you accomplish with them (if you don't mind "outing" yourself a bit here) What breed are they and what discipline(s) were they shown in? Did you, instead, buy a stallion that already had a show record??
I have owned a few stallions, and learned the hard way (but at least I learned!) that if I was going to be breeding and raising foals with the hopes of improving my breed of choice (Appaloosas) and occasionally selling a foal, I needed to select the stallion and his mares very carefully, look for accomplishments individually and "close up" in their pedigrees, and know their “families” very specifically.
I have owned my current stallion for five years. I bought him already “made”. He was not cheap, but I am pretty sure his price was well below what it cost to campaign him to his various wins and awards. He is a multiple World Top Ten at Halter (open and non-pro) and Year End High Point Finalist (open), and reserve World Champion at Halter (non-pro) and has two Register of Merits as well as 15 Grand Championships and 15 res. Grands.
I was helping an acquaintance “stallion shop” and they were looking at him. I am not particularly a “Halter Person” but this stallion’s full brother, sire and both grandsires (as well as further back in the pedigree) consistently sire/have sired winning “riders” in a variety of events as well as halter horses, and broodmares from these lines are sought after for producing pretty all-arounders. His bloodlines are also very unique in that he has no Impressive, no Zippo Pine Bar, no Dreamfinder, no Goer, or etc—so he is a viable proven outcross to horses from those lines (which are very common and getting increasingly linebred in my breed.)
All of this was a "plus", but it was seeing a video of this stallion being ridden that really sold me on him. He wasn’t ever totally “finished” under saddle, but displayed very fluid gaits and a softness, willingness and responsiveness that was very appealing. His previous owners had trail ridden him in mixed groups, including with their QH stallion, and he loved it. Lucky for me, the folks I was helping decided not to go through the hassle of owning a stallion, so I began negotiations myself.
>>>>> Do you stand them at stud yourself, at home? Do you accept outside mares or just breed your own? How many mares do you have yourself?
Our stallion is here at home. He is extremely well mannered and respectful of people, mares, and foals. I hand-breed and pasture breed, and I do allow him a “wife” mare year round once she is ultra-sounded in foal. I currently own six mares of breeding age, and have recently started leaving more than a couple mares open each year. I don’t solicit outside mares, although I occasionally breed one. I bred one outside mare last year, and anticipate breeding one this year. Both are quality mares—one is a proven producer from a program I admire, the other a mare with fabulous bloodlines who has had a long career as a child’s 4H mount.
>>>>> Are you still breeding to outside stallions despite owning your own because you need the variety in your program?
I seriously considered an outside stallion for one of my mares for a 2009 foal, but decided to leave her open this year instead. While the 2008 filly sired by my stallion out of this mare is adorable, personable, and a very nice moving baby (looks like a western all-arounder), this mare has more English-style movement and frame than my stallion and I think I will try a stallion more that direction if I do breed her again.
>>>>> What problems/challenges have you had with visiting mares? Has it been difficult to deal with mare owners if you only breed approved mares and have had to say no? Do you have certain hard and fast rules, like not breeding HYPP positive mares?
I have not had problems with mare owners as described above because I only breed an occasional outside mare, pretty much by invitation. With previous stallions, I have had a variety of frustrations, but it seems that this stallion is attracting a different calibre of mare/mare owner now than some of what I was breeding "back then".
Feel free to go check out my Appaloosas at www.eastowest.com – also check the sitemap for pages of old Appaloosa photos, history, breed standards discussions, and etc.
""My boy was still a stud when I bought him a little over 4yrs ago. I could "hardship" register him w/ ApHC (he has all 4 characteristics), but his lineage is unknown so it would have been silly to keep him intact.""
ApHC does not hardship register intact stallions or mares-- only geldings or spayed mares.
Good topic, not too many posts though.
I thought I'd briefly jump in here.
We have a very diffucult situation here in our breed and location. The breed is very rare, and good quality in this breed is also hard to come by. The breed did not exist here until we imported in 2003. And, to assist us in developing the breed here, I was in close contact with the founders of the registries in America in the selection of the stock we imported.
Bringing over horses from America costs a fortune, and here in Europe breeding stock, both stallions and mares, are inspected and must pass inspection before being allowed to breed, otherwise the foals do not get their papers with pedigree. They can be generally registered but without pedigree if they are from an unofficial breeding. This means there is high risk when importing, because you do not know ahead of time if the horse you import will really pass inspection.
This makes for complicated selection when importing. At the time we imported only a couple of stallions existed in Germany, and some in Sweden. We made the choice to import two stallions. Bloodlines in this breed are also complicated, there are types (Morgan/Arab types, QH/Appy types, Sport/Endurance types, MFT types, pony and draft).
We focussed on two types, and breed the two types separately. One stallion is almost purely one bloodline, the other has a mix but includes a little from the other stallions bloodline so that customers can breed the offspring of these two groups together and complement each other.
It was a hard choice, but without having the stallions here we would have nothing to breed to.
I have spent a lot in their training iver two years, they were inspected and passed their breeding inpection, one with flying colours (made 6th place out of 35 different special breeds stallions), the other did ok, however is the most beloved stallion for breeding and offspring.
This year it is time for the riding inspections (at 3 years they have their first inspection at 5 or 6 they do their riding test). I have to invest now loads into their training for this (minimum 1500 Euros for each, that's three months training minimum).
People are now bringing their mares to them for breeding, but it has been very slow going because there were no mare owners up until this last year.
We imported our third stallion a year and a half ago, he is now two years of age, and we will need to do the whole thing over again. We have onyl 5 mares, and two pony mares of this breed, so basically we have too many stallions. I cannot though, geld one of the others until I know that the new stallion passes inspection and so on.
To do it really right I would need to be able to invest even more money into them, we need better facilities than we have, we do OK, but yes one day the two stallions (after a storm blew down a fence) decided to explore up the mountain and we got a call that they were wandering through a farmhouse up there. We came up, and a crowd of local farmers were watching at a good distance, we walked up to them and led them home (people were astonished because they are used to the big bad mean biting stallion myth).
If I could I would not own stallions really, as it is very costly, and for us they don't bring all that much. However, they have been good marketing magnets and people like to come and see them. It's like going to the zoo.
Financially it's a burden, and although we don't do it like it is done at the big barns, our situation is a little different and wierd, and we just cannot afford to. Hopefully however, as the breed expands here, we will be able to reduce our herd size, I can retire and focus more on my stallions. My goal is to present them together ridden classically (think Spanish Riding School) to present the breed and it's abilities.
We have the opportunity living in Austria to accomplish this, if financially we do it right.
OMG Fugs found Vito...I was wondering when you'd find him...he's quite the fun fun man over there at Dream Come True farms...lol I was wondering how long it would take you to find him...though I do believe he deserves a post allll on his own lol...
I think what aggravates me the most about people that own and breed are the ones that breed un tried and un proven and some times even completely un trained studs.
Nothing says lack of "quality" like a back yard stud that hasnt been off the property to even a local show. Yet I see that all the time.
Hey Austriancurls, How are you? Fugly, these stallions,pictured are gorgeous, they don't even look real!!!
This is just a little off topic, but is still relevant to stallions. I just got back from a pinto show in Oregon. I was standing next to this Saddlebred getting ready to go in my class. A mare walked by, and he perked up a bit. So I looked at the gal who was on him and asked, "Oh, is that a stallion?!" To my dismay, she said 'Yes" It was all I could do to not blurt out, "Oh, the way he toes out in the front, I would've expected the jewels to be chopped off a LONG time ago!" I would NEVER breed to anything like that! It was awful...and his performance under saddle sure didn't help either! Its really just sad that because a horse has the right plumbing, people think it should reproduce.
I owned and campaigned an APHA stallion. Bought him as a weanling and let him be a baby until later in his yearling year. Took him out and starting showing halter and he earned his ROM which for a rider built stallion is not easy.
I started him as a 2 year old then sent him to a trainer to finish. He earned his superior in WP in Open and I also put 27 AMT WP points on him.
It cost *then* $500 a month for board and training. He stayed at the trainer for 7 months.
couldn't pass up the chance to share this beauty here in No.Cal.
question: is slightly halter broke like being kinda pregnant?
3 yr old Paint Bred Stallion - QH papers possible - $750 (Lincoln)
Reply to: sale-667486361@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-05-04, 11:36AM PDT
Beamer is a gorgeous young stallion that would make a fabulous show horse. He is royally bred with champions on both sides of his pedigree. He has not been handled a whole lot - gentle but only slightly halter broke. He will be able to get QH papers but it may take a year or so as there is a hold up with one of the horses in his pedigree. AQHA is not in a hurry to grant papers to Paint Bred horses but it does get done if you are patient. Many other horses for sale at this time. All with championship pedigrees. Credit cards accepted.
Call 916-203-9390 if you would like to come take him home.
Ok. I'll play. I ended up with a crop out quarter horse stallion who was by a World Champion and out of an Equistat leading dam. The idiot woman who abandoned this horse had him in training at a big name reiners place from the time he was 18 months old til he turned 5. She brought him to me to breed all of her mares and then flew the coop and disapeared. After feeding her entire herd for two years I said this is nuts and won them via a stableman's lien. "Studly" was there so I started riding and showing him successfully. Showed him to number four in the nation in APHA one year and won numerouse year end high points, ROMS, et cetera. Had foals that were riding age that were/are winning every thing you enter them in. Still couldn't get a full book to the horse. He had excellent conformation, a great disposition, talent running out of his ears, sired better than himself and his foals are doers just like him. His biggest fault? He was red and he was 16 hands tall. Not much call for reiners or cow horses of that height! That one horse had over $100,000. invested in him in training and showing alone, not to mention general upkeep. Know what he sold for? I'll tell ya: $30,000. bucks and I was damn glad to get it but I wouldn't take for the experience and getting to ride a horse of his caliber. So, Fugly, go for your dream with VLC. I did with mine and it was worth every penny I lost to get to travel that two years all over the US and show at the big AQHA and APHA shows. Just remember, "How do you make a large fortune into a small one?" Have horses!
Yeah, let`s spend all that money to put a show record on a stallion and then find out he does not produce. Test breeding seems a much better way to go. Makes sense to find out if they have what it takes in the breeding shed before making a real expensive gelding.
Long time FHOTD fan.Have bred and raised TB's for H/J for the past 30 yrs.Currently stand home bred and raised Solo Drummer on our small farm in Pa.He can be seen on www.equine.com Go to the stallion section and put in Pa.as location and TB as breed.Feel free to critique,I love him regardless.I also owned his sire.
Cost to compete on the East coast.Training board and show expenses:$2000.00 per month which does not include shipping or stalls at shows.He competed at A and B rated shows as 3-6 yr old.He still competes though not full time and is always in the ribbons when he gets to go.I simply can't justify monthly $$ that is more than my mortgage!I would love to send him to Fla. but again can't manage the expenses and keep the farm going.
He has produced very nice foals and has an outstanding work ethic.I attribute this to him being handled safely and correctly from day 1 as well as always being allowed to be a real horse.He is ridden regularly,turned out with other geldings daily or out 24/7 weather permitting.He is very easy to manage as a breeding stallion and you would never know he's a stallion if you are in the ring.He knows his jobs and the rules and boundaries for each job he is asked to perform.
He was advertised in major horse publications and again a huge expense.Am I getting rich off all the mares coming to him?Hell no,in fact between the preference for the Warmbloods as the "must have" show horse and the big push for Pa.Bred TB racing prospects I am lucky if I get any interest in him despite his show record,proven ability of his foals and the economy/horse market in general.
Will I stop breeding?I have always been very selective and will continue to do so.I have turned down more outside mares that I have bred.Why?Because I care to only put out and produce quality horses that become lifers for the people who purchase them.I have satisfied clients many of whom have become long term friends.My horses have good homes when I decide to sell them and they leave me with a placement agreement to return to me if they need to.
If I can do it certainly the "big time" owners, trainers and farms can and more to the point SHOULD be doing it.
I was fortunate to have been brought up and mentored by some excellent horsemen and women.You take care of your horses and do the best for them because they always do their best for you.They deserve it and you get paid back way more than any $$$ amount in your bank account.Sorry this got so long but this topic really hits home with me.
I had a TWH stud, bought him at 2 days old cuz I thought he was amazing, everything I had hoped for and loved his mama. I sent him, as a yearling to Tennessee to be trained in hand and shown at the breed shows. There aren't many of those within reasonable travel distance here in PA. Shipping down was $900, board and training/month was $525, and showing varied, but generally was about $250-500 per weekend. I had her two about two shows a month and then a couple of the "Big" shows. The one big show was over $1200, and we were going to take him to the Celebration and that was going to cost me about $2500. I did not send him to the best of the best trainers and did not want him to be padded up or anything. He did really well, took all the showing and big rings in stride, indoor and out, stabled well, and won lots of ribbons on top of it all. I decided to bring him home until he was three. and break him to harness myself. But he ended up having a pasture accident at 2 and half and had to be put to sleep. So all the money ends up for nothing really except he did manage to settle the mare that I had bought specifically to breed to him. She's due in July and I can hardly wait! So yeah, mighty expensive!
I have a draft stallion and love him to pieces but at the same time would not recommend stallion ownership to most people.
He is used for general purpose riding as well as out on the trails. He also is used in parades to hand out candy and stuffed animals to the kids. I can take him through the middle of the city and he won't bat an eyelash. I have also taken him to local shows where he does well in halter against all breeds and has even done well in the open english pleasure classes. He is kept with my gelding, so he is not alone and is socialized. He is very well behaved and can be worked around other stallions and mares in season with no problem.
He's not perfect but for me he is a once in a lifetime horse. While I think he is a nice horse, I don't stand him to mares at this time and possibly never will and am fine with it.
Thanks guys for your comments about Sprocket. When I brought him home as a baby, I told him and anyone within listening distance that it only takes one phone call to make him a gelding. Since temperament is so HIGHLY heritable, there was no way I was going to have a nasty stud around with my very young son and non-horsey husband.
The best thing I ever did was send him to the trainer when he was 18 months old, the spring that he was starting to figure out what those dangling things were about. After 30 days of consistant work at the hands of my trainer, he came home acting like a sweet little gelding and has been that way since.
My son began taking lessons on Sprocket when he was 3-1/2 years old, but Will had been sitting on him much younger then that. The main criteria for letting him sit on a horse was that I could find a helmet small enough and safe enough to save his head if he came off. And yes, that is my son showing Sprocket in leadline.
I appreciate that you, Fugs, commented that I will not be winning the parent of the year award. That means a lot to me. I would like to point something out in those pictures on my website. The adult on the other end of the line is not just some guy, but the trainer that has overseen Sprocket's career for years. Sprocket knows that Mike = Work and would never put a foot out of place while working.
Shortly after I mentioned to some folks that Will was going to make his leadline debut on my stallion, some folks got bent out of shape and tried to get rules passed that a child could not ride a stallion at my breed shows. This was quickly put to bed when folks saw my son and stallion, perfectly behaved in the ring.
This pony has an amazing work ethic and I love him dearly. My non-horsey husband can handle him with ease. (Actually, Sprocket behaves better for my husband because I have been the "breeding lady" for years, so Sprocket does try to nicker at the girls every now and then when I am at the end of the lead rope.) My (now) six year old son can ride him and lead him with no problem, but there is always an adult holding on to him while allowing Will to think he is doing all the work because he IS still a stallion.
When Will is ready to show in Walk-Trot classes (without a lead line attached), he will not be riding Sprocket. It is not that I do not trust Sprocket to take care of my kid, it is that I do not want to put the stallion in a possition where he needs to fight the urge to mingle with the cute mare in the ring being ridden by another small child. THAT would be too much to ask of Sprocket.
Again, thank you all for your nice comments about my stallion. But I hope what you got out of my original comment is that no matter how nice the stallion, the cost of owning one far exceeds what you will ever make back from him. I am so happy to have Sprocket, but he will be the only stallion I ever own. It is a VERY expensive journey that I will only take once. Some day, I would like to make a run at a national title before Sprocket is retired from the show ring, but that would cost me $10,000-$15,000 to do. So that may have to just remain a dream.
Dear Fugly,
Since you have done this two days in a row now, I feel you must be corrected.
http://begthequestion.info/
I enjoy reading your usually very grammatically correct blog, and thought you might appreciate me pointing out your error so you may avoid it in the future. No hostility meant, simply acting on my pet peeve. Thank you.
I have a colt at the moment that I am keeping intact. To date he has stunned breed judges and everyone who sees him says Wow! He has a fabulous temperament and gorgeous movement.
However, if he decides to get too obnoxious at some point, I am perfectly willing to cut him (and he gets threatened with that A LOT!)
He will also be attending a stallion testing and having a competition career before breeding any mares other than maybe one or two of mine at most. He needs to prove himself in sport and I need to make sure he reproduces well before letting him breed to outside mares.
Do I expect to make money? No. I also don't plan to market him much. He is mainly going to be my stallion for one or two mares and any friends that want to breed to him. His first and main position is going to be my competition horse. Anything beyond that is just peanuts.
Anyway...just thought I'd add my two cents. :-)
Hey "I" if you aint going to use your mini stallion for breeding why dont you geld him? Less chance for him to get tumors.
Jsommers I have one critique with your program. I just think breeding a 24 year old mare sucks. I was glad to see that you didnt toss her under the bus when she failed to catch again but still...when is enough enough? Kudos though on saving "Yellow Mare." I am curious as to why you aint going to break her out though. As Fugs says, training is insurance.
Well i just got home from a sale where Regestered paint yearlings went for $200. Their stud did nothing and the mare did nothing, what did they expect?
In fact almost everyone I know is getting out of breeding or only shipping seamen. This includes 3 AQHA pros that are done breeding. With the low prices in Canada, and the expected Kn. money earners flooding the market over the next few years.... its going to be impossable to sell.
I worked at a barn that stood 2 AQHA studs in 2004, an older halter stud (N/H ok bitch at me now lol) and a WP stud. The older stud was campained in the 80's and had sucessful babies for 15 years (several halter superiours, multiple world qualifers, and wonderful point earning APHA and AQHA riding horses that all inhareted his great disposition) For him the out lay was a long time ago but he was still producing winners up untill he was retired.
The younger stud, was bought as a 2YO with very little training. Boss went to see him with 10 days riding, trainer was on the horse and 2 dogs had a fight under him. My boss wrote the cheque. But he was also well breed and could move! By the time he was 3 he had a ROM in Jr WP, halter points and was only shown within a 300 mile radius. (as a trainers horse, it was worth it for him, anyone else... Im sure would have spent 20,000 in training alone) We are lucky if we get 10 in a Jr WP class, but in our area ususaly produces 1 or 2 WS finalists per year.
That winter he breed 3 mares, then got tangled up in a fence that almsot cripled him, he is trail sound but has never been shown under saddle sence. His foals (the oldest of which are 7) have points in every event (except cattle events) most have multiple all-around titles, and ALL are ridden by amatures or youths. (wonderful dispositions, like there daddy, but the judges like them too!) But hes done.... I belive they are breeding 3 mares this year. the 'magic' crosses (the money earners, and producers of money earners)
Sorry for the spelling its late and my fingers dont want to work!!
ot now,
you know at first, i thought maybe that was just a horrid picture of the kid jumping from dream come true farms but then they were ALL that awful! i could just picture my instructor beheading those people saying "they should be doing groundpoles and learning to WAIT for the HORSE!!!!" awful. i wonder how many accidents they have had?
Considering some of the comments I prefer to NOT out myself.
I find that owning my own stallion to be both rewarding and an experience that cannot be compared to riding a gelding.
My stallion has done well winning two Horse of the Year awards but because his registration is on your list of hateful registries all I will say is that he actually carries some of the nicest and proven Euro WB breeding lines but that obviously means nothing to some posters here.
If you are capable of training your own horse then the cost is reduced considerably and my stallion is actually boarded at less than $300.00 per month. Do I want him to go to all the most expensive National championship shows, nope and that is my business alone. It has nothing to do whether he would be capable or not.
Am I concerned that he may not get bunches of mares, nope not one bit. I am way more concerned that he is a happy healthy stallion in his surrounding ( which he is) and that is enough for me.
Most people will never recoup the investment in obtaining the training,showing,competing,advertising/marketing and the ongoing expenses involved with maintaining ones own stallion.One only has to see the value in the hard work,patience,determination,pride, love and satisfaction that is repaid in so many ways...PRICELESS!
I, like a lot of, you at one point thought oh yes I want a stallion, and since I start young warmbloods and train dressage horses through the FEI levels for a living I would save so much money and become famous with my world class stallion....dream dream dream.
I talked to many people, and what actually changed my mind was someone asked me if I would ensure that EVERY foal my stallion had sired led a happy life 'til the end. Even if you only cover 30 mares for ten years and those foals live 20-30 years, oh boy...
I am now seeing this exact thing first hand. The barn I train out of is owned by a woman who stood a world class WB right here in seattle area for years. She now has 6 stalls filled with his get. None of them were bred by her. All have had career ending injuries or were dropped at slaughter. #1 she couldn't bare to let anything she helped create fall to the wayside and #2 that was her reputation on the line. Stallion owners take such a huge risk standing to the public and their often fugly mares. I would be a mare owners nightmare, probably insisting on clear conformational photos especially of feet and legs, maybe video of movement, performance record, any pictures of past foals and who sired them.... I'd rather let someone with a PHENOMENAL stud and oodles of money stand the boys, and I'll just ride and buy their offspring!
Hey buckdoff, I'm ok, I'm on foal watch so very sleepy.
jf: very well said.
dressagetrainer:
This year is the first year I'm breeding outside mares. We require that all mares coming to our stallions are inspected and have passed and are accepted by the breeding association as breeding stock. If they do not pass the requirements for entry into the Mare Book, they do not get breeding papers, and are not accepted at our farm.
I had two new owners approach me, I said, here are the infos for the association, please contact them, have your mare inspected and when she is approved we can make an appointment.
This way an "objective" judge has done the check on the mare, and the owner shows they are serious about the mare they want bred.
I'm glad I'm here in the EU, although I was at first shocked by every horse having to have a passport, and by the lack of freedom in breeding here, I am now very glad for it. It means the associations and EU regulations are protecting my investment in the horses.
I'm surprised there is no grading system for any of the US 'native' horses. I'm involved in New Forest breeding in the UK, I ride for a NF stud, and all the native breeds over here have stallion licencing and gradings of varying degrees of stringency. The NF breed has two licensing rounds - at 2, and at 5. The 2 year olds are examined inhand only, by a vet (both balls down, heart, lungs etc, like a pre-purchase vetting) and by a panel of breed society judges for adherence to breed standards and temperament. They can (and do) fail on temperament, the licencing is done in groups at the beginning of the year and again at the end, to allow for ponies who were born later in the season and may not be ready for licencing in March/April. Then at 5 they're assessed again, same deal, to make sure they have lived up to their early potential. If they fail they can't be shown as a stallion and no progeny can be registered as purebreds.
They also have the Elite scheme (http://www.newforestpony.com/elite_scheme.html)which awards points for successes in various disciplines, and a voluntary (becoming pretty popular) grading scheme, open to stallions, ridden mares and broodmares - broodmares are graded inhand only, stallions and mares will jump and/or do a dressage test, varying heights and difficulties of tests. We are breeding our third generation of ponies now, our first-gen homebreds are now breeding and our second-gen stallion is having his first season covering this year, aged 4. They are all ridden, and all capable of doing a job, whether it's being a family pet or a high-powered performance pony.
Horsewings,
Technically, that was two critiques.
For starters, Zangi was 22 when we bred her the last time. I think your blanket statement about breeding older mares is a bit to generalized. If the mare is in good health and is able to carry another foal, I have no problem with it. If you took the time to see the small number of foals I put on the ground each year, you will realize that none of my mares are "baby factories".
I have not sent the Yellow Mare to the trainer because it costs money to do so. I have one pony at the trainers barn ever month out of the year. For my farm, it is more important for my show and sale ponies to spend the time over there.
Besides, the Yellow Mare will never leave my farm. She had a bad start to life and her purpose right now is to eat good food, drink clean water, stand for the vet & farrier, and get dewormed. This is my gift to her - a life of never being without.
I will never sell her or give her away. She is not breeding quality, so doesn't need to end up in a situation where someone is breeding her because she has a uterous. If something bad happens where I need to dump all of my ponies onto the market, I will put her down. She has had four years with no worries so far, which I feel has been much better then the 6-8 (?) years she spent in hell.
Austriancurls, So nice to hear from you, I hope everything goes well with the foal, I'm just lurking (actually, reading) because I'm still riding other people's horses at this point, and the horse racing post has become annoying to me. Best of luck!!!
Wow, this Vito feller is a real winner, ain't he? Just lookit 'im go, jumping his spazzed-out stallion and sending kids over 4' jumps so that we can in some cases literally see daylight between their asses and the saddle. Nice.
But the kicker for me is the pic of him lungeing a horse . . . using A ROPE TIED AROUND ITS THROAT. Is he training the damn thing, or sizing it up for capital punishment?
*palmforehead*
Some people's kids, I tell ya . . .
That jumping "form" is just outrageous. HOW exactly does an instructor TEACH that?? I can safely assume they are being taught to jump like that since every one of them is eight inches out of their tack and has a death grip on their poor horse's mouth. Dangerous, dangerous, dangerous.
Kind of on-topic, but have any of you been to this site?
http://members.surfbest.net/hillbilly@surfbest.net/critique.html
I may have been directed to that from the Fugly blog, so sorry if that is a re-post. Anyway, it is a HI-larious take on George Morris' Jumping Clinic. Hmmm...all this typing seems vaguely familiar, so I hope that I haven't posted this before. Enjoy it anyway!
This is for Tracey at Trinity Apps.
Just love your guys! They look like Apps!. We've always been a great fan (and owner once). Makes me want to show, just so I can have one of yours. You have a great product and as a recreational horse owner, I think they are priced fabulously. Maybe I can convince my daughter to do the Appy circuit when she graduates (hopefully Juris Doctor) in a few years, she'll consider it and I can help her purchase a quality mount to show.
Back in the mid-80s I visited a stallion owner who was standing a stud that was well known in the breed. This stud was one of those studs that you wondered why he was a stud. He looked like a nice little gelding. But he was bred to some really nice mares and produced many really nice foals.
Anyway, one of the things we talked about during the visit was the cost of owning and standing a stud. The stallion's owner claimed it cost him $40,000 a year to stand the stud, and a lot of it was advertising costs. But, he said, without all that advertising, he was never going to attract enough high quality mares to breed, and did not want to breed mares that weren't going to produce quality foals.
Too bad there aren't more stallion owners like that.
Soooo, I am catching up and rather late to the party.
Between hubby and I both, having handled numerous stallions, of various breeds, at numerous barns over the years, and now having 2 and a possible 3rd stallion of our own, I can speak from a standpoint of experience and reason, on this topic.
1) If the conformation isn't 'there'- GELD!
2) if the disposition isn't there-GELD!
3) if the facilities aren't up to par, or the money to put the horse in such a facility isn't there-GELD!
4) PEDIGREE- This can for some folks be an issue or a non-issue. If the horse has great qualities and excells on the open circut and proves themselves worthy of passing on their strong traits, a lack of a pedigree can be overlooked. However in cases of Scid, HYPP and Herda, knowing what you are dealing with, bears a bit more weight and pedigree plays a much bigger role and knowing if testing is needed or can be skipped. There again, if you are buying a horse to show and sink a ton of money into promoting, you would probably overlook the grade colts, as remaining a colt, anyways.
5) Performance record of some sort. If the pedigree isn't there and the horse just isn't competitive on the open circut level-GELD! If the horse is not to be shown, but rather used as a ranch horse or something similar, if he isn't quite up to doing the job as well as his couterparts-GELD!
6) if he doesn't produce at least as good or better than himself- GELD! The goal here is always to improve the breed.
~~~~~~~~~~
All that being said, as I have mentioned before and above, we own 2 stallions and one who may or may not be keeping his 'man marbles'.
The cost of promoting a stallion is astronomical. We will be training and showing the colt ourselves and IF you can do this yourself, you can save a big, big, big chunk of $$$... But entries are expensive, show clothes and tack are expensive, gas is still expensive and you both have to eat while on the road.
Even though your horse wins some big titles, you still have to advertise. You have to keep his name out there and make finding him easy. If you are standing him to outside mares- fliers, magazine adverts, class sponsorships, etc. are a must and all cost money.
Even if your horse wins at the top levels of his game, whatever it may be- He still has to produce!
The gypsies refer to a stallion as being 'generous'- passing on his good traits to his offspring, or 'stingy'- being a fantastic horse, but not passing any of his remarkable qualities on.
Although we have high hopes for our colt, only time will tell if he makes it to compete, does well in competition and if he will pass any of his good qualities on or not.
Anywhere along the way, he could easily wind up a nice gelding!
Besides, he still hasn't dropped his other testicle and the decision to geld may be made FOR us, whether we like it or not. The health risks of a retained nut are HUGE! and we like him way too much to risk that...
Cdncowgirl - yes, I want the info!!! I'll post to the most recent thread too.
I have arabians (well 1, and two in utero, and two QHs). For me, it's more expensive to have my stallion, but it's the way I've chosen to start my breeding program. I like what he had to offer, and I like being able to pick mares to suit him instead of buyin mares and having to look around the country for a stallion that will suit them, and as I live in an Arabian poor area, traveling to see them would probably be more expensive (but I hadn't considered that before I bought him). I figure campaigning him will be just as expensive as campaigning mares, and there are additional costs (stallion owners get to pay the nomination fees for all the programs, just so the mare owners have the option to nominate foals, to get him trained to collect for TS, and for the certificates for that, etc.). But, there are rewards too.
As for the Approvals that WBs go through.. I shudder. There are so many beautiful, useful types of Arabians, I'd hate to see them pigeon holed by people whom only like one style. Arabians are racing (personally, I love the mare Cath.. she's just a powerhouse), jumping (Go Russian Roulette. He's beat over 1000 WBs and TBs on the OPEN circuit.. and with a SR, disabled rider. As a SR himself. He didn't embark on his career til his late teens, and in his last year of competition, is carrying a JR rider from another barn.. lol.. he's quite a horse. 14.2 hands of heart :)), doing Saddleseat (I love Aequus personally), reining (hello Kordelas), working cow (hello Rohara Moonstorm), endurance (hello Belesemo, well all their horses actually), Dressage (hi SS Orion), foxhunting (hello Pascion S), barrel racing (hello Misty.. not her registered name.. I can never remember. But at the local fair, and on the little britches circuit, she's almost always the fastest horse, and has been for 6 years, first for her original rider and has now passed down to two younger sisters), Western Pleasure (GS Khochise is a beloved example, may he rest in peace), and just about anyting else we can think of to do with our horses. Three so far are approved Trakehner stallions (Aul Magic, Ta'ez, and Al-Marah Quebec). I'd hate to see the versatility of the breed compromised because of one single person's vision. I have my own vision of the perfect arabian, and not everyone will agree with it, but thankfully, the breed is large enough for more than one or two visions. I'd hate it to be reduced to only WP and Saddleseat, or Dressage and Jumping. It would be a terrible disservice not only to the breed, but everyone whom loves them, and all the past breeders that have worked so hard to offer the current afficianados the options we have.
I'm a avid reader of this blog but have never posted. When I saw the pictures of those kids jumping I was like "that barn looks familiar" and it is....Dream Come True Farms Manorville LI right up the road from me. That place has such a bad reputation around here. Such a shame though, the facility is beautiful.
I hope I wont regret outing myself, but here it goes...
I currently stand two Thoroughbred stallions. Both are standing to the Sport Horse market, and NOT as race sires (one raced but was NOT a racehorse, and the other is unraced).
I do show both boys myself. Having said that, I have hired a professional handler for the 'big' shows. I actually quite like being the proud mama on the sidelines at times ;) I would honestly hate to even guess what showing has cost me...and neither stallion has finished their show careers in their respective disciplines - far from it actually. Yikes.
The one stallion, Half Moon Romance, raced and retired sound. He has shown on the line and done very well (even won the Royal Winter Fair, for anyone who knows what that is haha). I had started him over fences in the hopes of showing the hunters or jumpers. Unfortunately a nasty injury prevented that. SO, we went with plan B - a career in dressage. He has been out to a few shows in this discipline and done VERY well. He will continue showing in dressage and on the line. He also was inspected with the Canadian Sport Horse Association, and was Reserve Site Champion (beating some lovely WB boys) with GREAT scores. I love this horse to DEATH, and he really DOES have the greatest temperament (not just saying he does haha). If he were never able to cover another mare again, he'd still have a forever home with me.
Yes, I do breed many outside mares every year, as well as my own. Let me tell you - if you are thinking about owning a stallion to stand to the public, you *might* want to reconsider it ;) While I have dealt with some FANTASTIC mare owners, I have also dealt with some serious asshats. And for anyone who's going to argue that not all stallion owners are a party to deal with, I couldnt agree more with you. I know of some myself that I would RUN (and I mean RUN) from :)
Im not looking to make millions with the stallions. Actually, if anything I end up LOSING money by owning/standing them. On top of that, I have daily headaches due to breeding and showing schedules, mare owners, paperwork, collections etc (never because of the boys themselves, who really are saints).
So why do I do it? Because I love my boys. And I believe they truly have something to offer to their breed. And because I LOVE seeing the foals grow up and win in the show ring and go on to make their owners (and me) proud.
Yes, I still breed to outside stallions as I feel every program should. Heck, there are some I DROOL over daily :)
And yes, I *HAVE* turned away mares. THATS never a picnic let me tell ya. While I try to put it politely, some mare owners are pretty sure that because their girl has a euterus, i should breed it. Ugh.
So there, Ive outed myself... now place nice, ok? ;) LOL
Stephanie
SC Sport Horses
www.scsporthorses.com
We have a 6 year old QH stallion called Gotta Lotta Gold. Here is a photo of him taken last year
[IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c134/BuddyQH123/contractphoto.jpg[/IMG]
We allow only 4 outside mare to him every year. All the mares are hand served and all are paddocked on their own.
We bought our boy because we had a lovely mare who was a multi Champion Show jumper and no breeder would allow us to breed her to their QH stallions as she was a Stationbred (Mixed breed).
We saw Buddy (our stallion) on a website when he was only 6 months old and I knew he was the horse for us. We bought him when he was a year old and started training him.
He is a riding horse first and a breeding stallion last.
We had him broken in at 2 years old and he has only been ridden twice a year until now. He is just starting his Dressage career and will be competing in the Winter Dressage in ugust.
Here is some photos taken 2 days ago. It was the first time being ridden in over a year and by a new person too. The second person riding him hadn't ridden in a long time and wanted to have a go too.
[IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c134/BuddyQH123/P1030670.jpg[/IMG] and
[IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c134/BuddyQH123/P1030684.jpg[/IMG]
Our boy will not serve a mare in the paddock no matter how hard she teases him and will only hand serve with his breeding halter on. If a mare pulls back and gets loose he will hide behind me until the mare is tied again.
My helper says that if he was a human he would be a 40 yr old virgin living with his mother.
When he is out showing he completely ignores all the horse around him and usually goes to sleep and rest his back foot (not good when the judge is looking)
The last show we went to, the judge even looked underneath him to see if he had all his man bits.
A stallion is just another horse and if taught properly from the start he is a pleasure to own and handle.
I have even carried on talking on the phone while I have held him serving a mare.
Anyone can ride our boy and anyone can handle him while he is serving.
I always have my 2 old empty mares (24 & 27yrs) in the paddock with him to keep him company and I know he will not serve them.
We are very strict on what mare come to our stud and we are far more fussy with the owners.
We try to only allow mare here who's owner want to keep the foal (you can't always guarantee that will happen but we try).
We will not allow mares with a Roman nose, Goose neck or Parrot mouth.
All mares must have a fantastic temperament and great conformation.
We have a gelding clause which is to stop people breeding a Palomino and just looking at the colour and saying they will stand him at stud.
We breed for temperament first and then conformation. The colour is just a bonus.
We will not sell our foals to anyone who has not had a young horse before. If after talking to any potential buyer I don't feel 100% that it is a great home I will not sell the foal.
I will not sell a foal who has been permanently injured EG we have a foal here who severed her tendon in the front of her back leg. It has healed up great and you can't tell she even has an injury. She will never be sold as we would tell the new owner her condition but there is no guarantee that they will tell the person they sell her to. she is now my hubbies new horse and will live here forever.
Sorry if I have rambled but I am very proud of my boy and love him to bits.
My boy also had to be classified before I could stand him at stud to make sure he was a good example of the breed and worthy of being a stallion.
I have only shown my stallion in hand. I do not ride due to a neck injury I received many years ago. My boy has always got Champion or Reserve Champion in every class he has been entered in.
I live at the very bottom of New Zealand and it is very hard to find a western trainer down here. Up until recently If I wanted him western trained I had to send him away and I won't do that after hearing so many horror stories.
I have just been to see a local lady who is going to western train him in the Summer.
He is also going to be broken in to the harness so I can go for rides with everyone else.
I believe a busy stallion is a happy stallion.
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