Before I address our topic of today, a $58,000 sterile Gypsy Vanner stallion, I want to point out that I have purchased a small horse farm on 5 acres with a house for $67,000 and, while it was not exactly Southfork, it was a hell of a lot better use of that kind of money that this critter would be to anyone. Seriously, if you are dumb enough to fall for this and have this kind of cash to spend, come sit next to me. OK, I'm kidding, but at least I'd spend it rescuing sweet old Thoroughbred mares and that would at least be useful.
Text of the ad: "Arkan was purchased from Black Forest Shires and Gypsy Horses. Arkan is Sterile and son of Lion King. He has never settled a mare and no proof exists of his fertility. The price is negotiable and includes loss of income from 4 gypsy mares that he was unable to breed. "Um, sir? First of all, this sounds like a you have a lawsuit with Black Forest Shires and Gypsy Horses. Why would you think you should pass that expense on to a potential buyer? Loss of use, are you on crack?
Second, did you not get the memo about how people in the horse business typically lose money? Especially when they pay too much money for a stallion without bothering to fertility test him. Not that I think the Earth needs to be populated with shaggy legged colored cobs, but if I were going to pay some ri-fucking-diculous amount of money for one, I would damn well make sure he wasn't sterile first. Did you find out if he had foals on the ground or you just merrily signed a ginormous check because he was REALLY hairy and that's just nifty?
But hey, forget trying to go after the seller (other than talking smack about them on Equinehits: memo to you, No One Cares), let's just try to get someone buy the world's most overpriced gelding.
(Has anyone here read this Cali Canberra novel "Trading Paper?" I just started it and it's a thinly disguised account of the sale of NH Love Potion in the 1980s Arabian world. Was that really the story, some dumb rich guy who got bamboozled into signing a contract for $2.4 million for a mare? I'm sure we have some Arabian insiders here, fill me in. Although really that should be another post because I heard how that mare ended up and it pisses me off big-time. I met that mare, by the way. She licked my hand when I was 15. Your trivia for the day.)
213 comments:
You said "there are simply no words...." I can think of several.
Is this guy loony? What the hell is he thinking? ~and~ HUH?
I think the price is negotiable to $580!
You've posted many a crazy thing on this blog, but this one did leave me speechless, and that's an accomplishment!
Oh, he's pretty! (Really, I love these...total soft spot)
I'll give you $8000, provided he's broke to drive.
Oh, wait.
Actually I think he does drive, but he's not worth 50 grand unless he can drive a car!
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!
I'm sorry he lost money on the deal, but this just strikes me as somebody who didn't do his homework and got toasted.
Seriously, you could buy a NICE thoroughbred at auction for half that price and make up your money at the track.
Has he had this critter fertility tested at all? Most repro vets will do that and it's not all THAT expensive (particularly with respect to a $58k horse!). Did he not settle any mares because there are no swimmers or are the mares having issues?
surely it must be a typo?
i have to start my UK -to US black and white cob transporting business...
hey have you guys herd of EXMOOR PONIES??? they are cool, and err, fluffly, and i would sell you lots for the great price of $60,000 each, cos they are ferile and ponies, and ponies always sell well, right?
Awesome re your horse farm purchase. Good work!
What state you live in, FHOHD? In my area 5 acres + house goes $700+ at least. :( May be I have to move. Lol!
In any case the ad were really strange: did he try to sell horse as show prospect or something? 65K - unbelievable!!
I've known top AQHA show geldings to sell for 6 figures...but can only think of one or two such animals - and they were (and still are) the bar by which all others in the show pen were (are) measured. (Like Majestic Scotch)
Paying $50,000+ isn't too ungoldly uncommon for a TOP show animal...but if this boy's only claim to fame is color and fluffy feet? And idiot appeal?
Someone done got took.
OK, I was bad. I emailed him through Horsetopia and asked him what fantasy land he lived & worked in that he thought loss of income should be stated up front in your ad as part of your price. I mean, come one!
BTW, he has removed Black Forest Shires from his ad...now it just says "a farm in Colorado"....
Yeah, I read "Trading Paper." Marginally interesting re the Arabian horse bubble of the '80s, but that had to be the worst written piece of ...whatever... I've read. Changes of person/viewpoint from one SENTENCE to the next, non-existent proof reading, and was there actually an editor. I can't remember who the publisher was, but in retrospect, I have to think it was self-published. I can't imagine a reputable publisher/editor letting that thing loose on the public.
Has everyone figured out by now this poor sap is exactly the market the fluffy fairy horse breeders target? (I'm not sure if target is the right word, it may be attracts.) These neophytes are drawn to overpriced fairy horses like moths to a flame.
A famous horse trainer once told me, "If you really hate someone, give them a crippled gelding." I think the same can be said for sterile stallions. Even worse if you pay tens of thousands for one you bought as a breeding animal.
Other than that, the future gelding is cute but common. There are probably a hundred PMU draft cross babies just as big, fluffy, and colorful waiting to become some asshole's dinner.
Why oh why have they fluffed up his feet like that? Was the ad not ridiculous enough?
Wonder how much Oddie would fetch in America (see profile pic). He's coloured, feathered, kid-broke, lives off of air, has feet like rocks and hey! he has BLUE EYES. Could make a fortune, I bet.
LMAO! *gasp* *snort*
Dumbass.
Check out the Gypsy Vanner guy's website.
He "explains" that he was Took I tells ya!!
It does not explain why he bought a stallion without a fertility check.
Is there ANY industry where you can get away with adding in your loss due to stupidity/bad business decisions into your sales price (and actually recoup it)? If so, I need to change professions!
Mm... i like him, but i have an affliction of the mind that does lead me to liking the Ugg boot wearing fluffy legged cow coloured jobs.. still, enough of my mental aberrations.
Here in Good Ole Blighty, home of the Gypsy Vanner/Gypsy Cob, (to natives thats Pikey Pony, and in fact 10 years ago you'd have been laughed out of the show ring with one), Mr Firing Blanks there...
Would be worth potentially £8000 ish, maybe a bit more, dependant on his movement, conformation, and temperament. (That is based on current prices, not his 'actual' worth which if you remove the feather and the colour is more like £3 to £5K)
You could show him as he is ie 'Traditional Cob' or you could hog his mane, clip out his legs and show him thattaway and either way, he's county standard material..
As for attempting to recoup loss of earnings because one was dumb enough to buy a stallion without fertility testing... words fail me!
To add to Geld the Breeders list of top AQHA geldings who are actually worth what that fluffy beast is "worth":
Majestic Scotch, Harley D Zip, Zippo LTD, Acadamosby Award....
I have 4 mares that will not have foals for 2008. Costing me about $35,000.00
Above quote from his website... Does that mean he paid $35K for the mares or (more likely) that he expected to EARN $35K for the non-existant offspring???
You really need to check out his web site. He has spent beaucou bucks on barns etc. but the horses...
I feel kind of sorry for him after reading his web site - obviously loves horses but whoever sold him the alleged stud must have seen a rank amateur with money coming and screwed him good. He's learned the hard way about the evil side of the horse business and caveat emptor (buyer beware, for those of you who didn't go to a Catholic high school and were not forced to take Latin!)
Yikes!
I see nothing from his website that changes my thoughts as to his intelligence level.
Nowhere does he say that he has YET had the stallion fertility tested. The ad from the original sellers says "full report available" - I wonder if he took advantage of that report.
Unfortunately for the guy, it looks like he was trying to make a quick buck off the new popularity (I first typed poopularity, that may be even more appropriate) of the "brand new, trendy" GYPSY VANNER breed. (remember that Laura, before you start importing those fluffy b&w cob horses, haha) Sometimes attempts to make a quick buck backfire.
Yup, yup. What ems said is true. He might fetch a bit here...I'd say £8000 was being generous. He'd make a nice show cob, but he doesn't look all that athletic and people here generally like horses to be able to do a job.
And that feather would have to go. Althought I suspect it's been 'floofed' to a ridiculous level and isn't actually that silly.
Although Gypsy cobs are fun to look at, they are very specialized and have a relatively small market. It's too bad that just like the Freisians, we are breeding more big fat easy keepers for the kill pens. We just don't need more big fat horses around here. But, yeah, that guy has a lot of balls passing his financial losses on.
I know Lion King (love him) and I know of the barn mentioned. They actually are pretty repritable (sp?). I never met them in person but I've looked into the Gypsy horses. I want one but I'm waiting until the price starts to drop when they become less popular. Anyway, hell, I'm by far no expert but I know for a fact if I'm spending any amount that is a bit much to me or took awhile to save. I would be getting a vet check including checking if the stud is fertile or not. Especially if I had mares already picked out. DUH...
I, also, must admit to thinking they are kind of cute horses, overpriced, but cute.
I'd probably give up on keeping the feathers clean and just clip them off, though.... and then it'd just be a regular horse (BUT IT HAS SPOTS!).
Looking at this guy's site, he is the perfect example of how to make a small fourtune in horses, start with a large one.
They must have seen him coming with all of these horses..
Visited the future gelding owner's web site, and must say his facilities are to die for. His horses look well-kept, fit, and healthy. It's far better than the conditions most BYB's horses are kept.
So, whether this stallion is fertile or not, he could have a worse place to call home. For the moment, anyway.
Unless the feathered spotted thing can crap gold bars he's not worth 58 grand, nowhere near it. Those horses are NOT my thing though.
Kyani said...
Wonder how much Oddie would fetch in America (see profile pic). He's coloured, feathered, kid-broke, lives off of air, has feet like rocks and hey! he has BLUE EYES. Could make a fortune, I bet.
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If he is a gelding - maybe whoever would be interested in the $58,000 stallion will give you $60,000...... the additional $ comes from 1) blue eyes= $1900, and 2) money saved from gelding= $100.
Wowzers... this guy must have a screw loose...geez
OMG! Follow the website link and hit "Up"... The mares! My eyes! What shaggy lumps!!
Chester's Mom said...
OMG! Follow the website link and hit "Up"... The mares! My eyes! What shaggy lumps!!
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Oh. They look like giant (classic) Shetland ponies. Are they always hairy all over? (I know nothing much about the GV horses) Do you have to body clip them (except the feathers)? If so, I no longer even think it would be neat to own one. I'd hate to have to body clip something that big.
I agree with everyone! That is INSANE!! Top PRCA and WPRA rodeo horses can pull those kinds of figures, and they're quite often $$$ earners. Not some fluffy 3 yr old that can pull a little cart...hmm. Makes me wonder what my 5 year old gelding-a WORKING ranch horse-would be worth!! Maybe I can go to the dollar store and buy a halloween wig and glue it to his legs and get 50 grand for him-he can pull a feed wagon!! DOES THAT COUNT?? Hmm...maybe I'll use some of the face paint that's on sale now and put some BIG spots on him-steel gray and white spots!! What's that worth these days folks?
I congradulate the gentleman for posting the ad and also posting the information on his web site. Someone needs to get the word out about Jeff and BFS. People need to know that Jeff/BFS has more sterile stallions than we know of. For example, he took several people's money for a breeding to Rom Baro, knowing full well that Rom Baro was sterile. No mares took, ask Jeff/BFS where Rom Baro is today?????? Ask Jeff/BFS why he didn't refund money to those people - ask Jeff/BFS how he sleeps at night knowing he is doing this?????
Again, I applaud the gentleman for advertising his sterile stallion and making the horse world aware of Jeff/BFS. He reminds me of another person in Colorado/trail horses of Colorado. What is it with that state - no one knows how to make an honest living.
Ya know - perhaps the Shire farm isn't the problem. Like someone said, he reeks of newbie. Maybe HE did something wrong as far as the breeding goes and Arkan really is fertile.
I suppose the human equivalent would be the idiot couple thats been trying to get pregnant but forgets to remove the condom.
However, either way, he still comes out an idiot!
bubba,
Anyone who is spending that much money for a breeding stallion needs to spend another hundred to have it fertility tested. (even $500 horses are sometimes sold contingent upon veterinary inspection)
BFS may not be honest but neither is this guy trying to sell that horse for a jillion times what it is worth to the NEXT sucker.
I don't feel sorry for him. If you don't know that you should fertility test a stallion and get a freaking CONTRACT guaranteeing him breeding sound, that is a good sign YOU SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING.
After looking at the guy's website, I would say it's a good thing that the stallion is sterile, as it looks as though he has a pasture full of mares that are not Gypsy Vanners.
Bubba,
Ask why people who had mares paid without a "stands and nurses" contract on the breeding? Maybe they should not be breeding either...
I realize in Oklahoma things might be different, but what ever happened to a live foal guarantee when you breed? I realize in today's modern technological world that some things are really hi-tech and complicated, but they don't have to be....the stands and nurse thing is still common here, too!
There are many geldings for sale for 6 figures. Who are show horses. With, you know, show records.
http://www.bit-n-heavenstables.com/DSC_0009.JPG
EWWWWWW Look at the llama!
>>>>Cat said...
http://www.bit-n-heavenstables.com/DSC_0009.JPG
EWWWWWW Look at the llama!
October 17, 2007 8:59 AM<<<<
Thank God that horse is sterile. This guy has NO business breeding.
Seriously, is that a llama or a horse??? LOL
Okay, because I am an idiot, I went and Googled to find out what did happen to NH Love Potion. Here's what I found. Excuse me, I need to go and cry now.
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http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/index.php?showtopic=10152&st=60
From what I've heard, it was a pretty sad story (please, if I'm incorrect in the details, anyone who has more correct info please chime in).
She only has three registered foals; at the time that she was sold at the Lasma auction, she was in foal to Padron and had a colt, but the foal did not live long enough to be registered.
Her registered purebred foals are as follows:
Name Number Foaled Sex Color Sire
BLUE LOVE SONG AHR*431525 29 Mar 1988 Mare Bay BLUESPRUCETANZEER
APHRODISIAC LP AHR*486941 4 Apr 1992 Stallion Bay SOLSTICE
VH TSULTANSPOTION AHR*541775 18 Jun 1994 Stallion Bay IVANHOE TSULTAN
After the guy who bought her for $2M+ defaulted on payments, she was repossessed (like so many other horses at that time) by the bank and resold later, to some folks in Ohio, who then sold her to a couple. Unfortunately, Love Potion had a lot of medical problems - she had colicked severely a few times, had some other surgeries and was difficult to breed and keep in foal. She was sold and from what I have gathered, her medical history was not disclosed to the buyers. The couple who bought her spent a fortune on keeping her in decent health and trying to breed her.
The Solstice colt was bred at Midwest and the couple bought Love Potion when she was in foal. She had colic surgery two months after the foaling.
By spending a fortune using specialists, Rohara was able to get her in foal to Tsultan. Love Potion colicked toward the end of the pregnancy, but they were able to save her and the colt with emergency surgery. Vets said never to breed her again. 95% of the colon was removed, and the vets advised the owners never to breed her again. Meanwhile, there was apparently a flurry of lawsuits with lots of legal fees - the couple who bought her from Ohio never were able to obtain title to the mare and after spending a fortune on legal fees and surgery and breeding attempts they just gave up.
The Ohio person took Love Potion back and leased her to some people wanting to breed her. Allegedly, when the lessors went to pick her up she was knee deep in manure, her mane and tail were in knots and she was very underweight, with feet showing no care for at least a year. Even though the lessors were advised by the couple who previously bought/bred her of her medical history and NOT to breed her, they still did so anyway - as a result she colicked about halfway through her pregnancy and died in surgery.
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*snort*
Looks to me like someone has WAAAAY too much money. Maybe he should put all that money he makes from selling that "stud" to furthering his edumacation.
*blushes* I actually like the horse, but I wouldn't pay more than a few grand for him.
Hmm,
The previous owner of Mr Fluffy Feet the Fairy Cob... well they may or may not be crooks, and if they are and its so easy to tell.. why'd he buy anyway? If its such easily come by info that they have previous for selling/using sterile stallions...
Or did Fluffy Feets new owner figure 'what the hey, i may get lucky'..
Because he sure thinks that with his breeding stock!
Wow! What a catalogue of Fugly!
His grey stallion doesnt look like it would ever be sound to ride, never mind reproduce, I'm not surprised the Irish sold him that one (if thats where it originated as the rest seem to have done), they saw him coming a MILE off!
In the UK we do think it is HILARIOUS that there is a megabucks US market for 'Pikey Ponies', they are ten a penny, they are quite frequently fugly as sin, and most of them havent seen a real gypsy, a vardo or even Ireland itself, nary a leprechaun has glanced upon these beasts.
The closest this lot would get to being Irish is probably sniffing the breath of someone who has recently had a pint of Guinness.
(And yes.. many do 'come from' Ireland... that is, they were shipped there from England or Scotland or Wales to the irish dealer, who then ships to Mr American Megabucks seller...).
How does he figure he lost that much money? His mares arent worth more than £1000 - £1500 and that is again, being bloody generous!
I can't quite see how he thinks Fluffy Feet could cause any of his mares to produce offspring worth significantly more than their dams.
And how he thinks his other seriously fugly stallions are ever going to produce anything that can hold its own buckety head up and walk in a straight line.... sheesh!
Oh... and he points out, he had 30 days to test FluffyFeets fertility...
Why didnt he? Does it take more than 30 days to get the vet out and get a sample.. really?
If the previous owners are crooks, well 'buyer beware' and Ill bet he thought he could outwit them. Tough luck matey, you took a risk and lost, put on your big boy pants and suck it up, and whilst you are at it, geld your fugly stallions that ARE fertile!
I am amazed that Black Forest Shires will not take the horse back and return the money paid for a sterile stallion. Their website shows the organizaton to be a "class" horse-breeding place.
I emailed Black Forest recently, asking what do they do with the high-priced foals that do not sell. The answer was that Black Forest sells, or will sell, or is thinking of selling (I have to go review the email) surplus foals back to the Romany (Gypsy) people in England. They do not want "junk."
I don't think any horse is "junk"--to be thrown away, but then I am a lover of any equine...
By the way, the sterile stallion is lovely. I love Gypsy horses.
(The emailer from Black Forest didn't have great sentence structure or spelling or capitalization. To charge so much for a horse and not be able to spell or construct a common ol' sentence...oh well and whatever.)
Congratulations FHOTD on your new home!
I live on a five-acre place in Ohio, with a little home and a little barn. We raise sheep and chickens and now, my new colt!
Five acres is a lot of land if one does not cover ever inch of it with sheep or any other forage-eating animal. We have enough, even, for the deer who graze in the late evening on my husband's chicory and clover patch.
Happy that you are home.
BFS breeding contracts do come with a live foal guarantee, funny, how can they offer that when the stallion is sterile. I'll tell you how, they will keep the information from you, get your money, collect and ship, then tell you it's a problem with your vet and your mare. Again, I dare you to ask Jeff/BFS what ever happened to their great stallion Rom Baro!!!!
Tell me - have none of you on this blog never been taken advantage of??? That's what I thought.
I had a thought, maybe he was really stupid not getting more info on his "stallion".
But maybe he wasn't serious about selling him, maby he is just really pissed at the stable he bought the horse from and wants to let everyone know how much money he is out?
"nary a leprechaun has glanced upon these beasts"
Hey, don't make me laugh out loud while I am surreptitiously reading the comments during computer training at work! ;-)
I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm up in Canada, and I know when you are in the process of "suing" or have a lawsuit against someone, sometimes the lawyers have to prove that there is no way you would be able to make the money back that you purchased for.
Therefore, maybe its possible he HAD to put up the stud for sale at a "high" price to prove to the courts that he cannot sell it or make the money back he purchased it for.
Just a thought.
My new colt is a Gypsy/Haflinger cross!
He is a wonderful colt. I have never been around such a calm foal.
His sire and dam are the same way--gentle and non-reactive.
The colt learns quickly. He does have his sire's spots (chestnut and white) and has "feathers" (not as voluminous as dad's).
Remember, the "Gypsy Vanner" horse is a draft horse, so the big butts and feet and all go with that. The hair is the result of breeding Clydesdales and Shires and other furry horses to produce the smaller cob with all that hair.
I love this little fluffy spotted baby.
Based on several trips to the UK (in 2000, 2003, and 2007) I'd say the "gypsy vanners" aka big fluffy pinto things really didn't get popular until recently. I saw one or two along the road in 2000, in 2003 maybe a few more, but by 2007 they were *everywhere*, in every caravan. Clearly the "travelers" have figured out that they have a captive market. Now, a lot of them are very pretty horses, of course, but not all.
Saddest for me was visiting a farm just outside London. It had nice facilities and nice horses. But in one field -- with little grass, and pretty beat up, there were 3 carthorse foals ground, probably 2 months old at the most. They had a water tank at least, but no hay that I could find. They were sweet little fuglies who came right up to the fence to be petted, but one could tell they were going to end up canned, except maybe the pinto one, who was the biggest and the only one with halfway decent legs. One had an eye infection and the other two were snuffly. (No, I did not go back to the "nice" barn after I petted them!) The stable owner apparently leases that field to some Travelers and whatever goes on there (including leaving unweaned foals behind when their mothers go out to work) he considers none of his business.
i am a rather large fan (literally) of the Gypsy breeds. In doing research on obtaining one i came to discover that they are rare (or WERE when i was researching this about 8 years ago) in the States. In fact, in order to get one of QUALITY you have to get it from Europe and hope that is survives past new york (if it somehow dies after that, you are screwed out of your money). There are more breeders here in the states that are not breeding quality stock just so they can get "a leg up on the U.S. market". It's terrible that these beautiful horses are probably going to get "dumbed down".
Did he honestly think he was going to breed a top of the line priced horse to fuglies and make money? he needs a boot to the head.
Awwww, but he is cutie. I kind of want to hug him, standing there all fluffy like a bunny.
I do have to admit that I think gypsy vanners are adorable. I feel about them the same way I feel about Friesians. I'll look at them and say "Wow, how pretty!", and...well... that's about it. Until I win the lottery or happen to see one at a rescue, I won't be owning one.
Erk, no one get me wrong, I am loving the fluffies, no really and as a big ole lardybutt, this type of beasty is the type that I mostly ride, and indeed learned to ride on and unless I get me down to FatFighters quick, put down the Cheeseburger and pick up the cardboard erm.. Ryvita, is the only type I'll ever ride, bless their fuzzywuzzy feetses.
"But maybe he wasn't serious about selling him, maby he is just really pissed at the stable he bought the horse from and wants to let everyone know how much money he is out?"
Im pretty sure he is, oh yeah, but a/ he's a big boy, he knows the saying 'caveat emptor' (and if he doesnt he has no business buying horses),
b/ He is VASTLY overrating his losses due to buying this 'gelding-with-balls'.
In my world..... that == Open Season! Don't bleat about it on the net if you don't want your bleatings snarked upon.
"Hey, don't make me laugh out loud while I am surreptitiously reading the comments during computer training at work! ;-)"
Lets call it payback for the number of times i read this blog and suffer a coffee/nose/screen interface... *snort* ;-)
(And God Bless Working From Home :-))
Uh-oh...I read the email from Black Forest Shires again. The grammar and all was all right. Sorry, it was another email I was thinking about.
Black Forest Shires imports a lot of horses. Their website says they have another plane load coming in soon.
Elle and Blueeyed devil are on the money. I don't think the owner is REALLY trying to sell him. I think he is doing it either for a lawsuit strategy or to bad mouth BSF.
I also think the sterile stallion is lovely, but wouldn't pay more than $2,500 for him and probably not even that ... short horses just don't do it for me.
Okay, now I see the Gypsy mares. He looks to me like an entrepenuer looking to make a buck here. Like perhaps sitting on the middle of yet another American horsey trend. I am sure the Irish Gypsy Vanners will be right at home in Pensecola Fla. where they will sit in mist and fan cooled stalls for 8 months of the year.
Well
now
I
have
seen
everything.
But I must say... I want this guy's barn.
fuglyhorseoftheday said...
"Actually I think he does drive, but he's not worth 50 grand unless he can drive a car!"
Haha!
I think he is adorable. I'm a big fan of a nice hairy cob. He would make a nice driving gelding. I actually remember when he was listed for sale at BFSGH's.
I had considered importing until I discovered the cost. Yes, I could buy a hairy little cob for a dime (I don't want a dozen, just one, ~grin~) but the importation costs immediately bump that up to closer to $7000.10 or more. I can buy a weanling colt for that right here born and bred in the US these days.
Really, it is a lot for a weanling but not so out of the realm of being reasonable considering they are still fairly rare. Unless one is looking for breeding stock there are reasonable deals out there on the "Gypsy Horses", one just has to look around. Personally I shall be waiting a few more years until there are more on the ground and the prices drop.
and this is what happens when you try to cash in on a fad...
Rin, soon-to-be-owner of a fluffy-footed gypsy GELDING, for whom I am not paying either an arm or a leg.
Should you wish to link to my blog of rantings...
http://ems-dogsense.blogspot.com/
Fugly,
Congrats on your "farmlet," which is what I call ours, which is also 5 acres + house. Right before we moved our horses here, my friend said, "There is nothing else in the world like having your morning coffee in your own barn, in your pajamas," and she was so right!
It is being BLESSED WITH WORK. I hope you and your mares will love every minute there.
That ad reads like a smear campaign from someone who's bitter to me.
I too think it's clear that he;s just trying to bring awareness to the issue that he was taken advantage of. Yes, should have had a fertility test done as part of pre-purchase. Still, wrong and sad that you can't trust people.
I *love* his set-up!!!!! Absolutely stunning and well thought out barns and pastures. Nice to see how it should be done (if you can afford it!) versus all the bad ones we see on here!
Bit N Heaven Stables, that should be Once Bit N Twice Shy Stables. I'm sure he won't be caught like that again.
Those things, Othello and the grey he is importing from Ireland, are run-of-the-mill gelding material. The Irish must be dancing a jig every time this guy phones.
Lots of Irish horses are imported into mainland Britain and these stallions are really low end stuff.
Can't understand how someone with so much money isn't paying for some good advice instead of paying for crap.
Congrats on the house Fugly, I agree there is nothing like walking from your back door to your stables in your 'baffies' - that's Scots for slippers. That kind of money wouldn't buy a box to put your baffies in over here though...sigh.
Yep, congrats Fugly on the mini farm purchase. That kind of money might get you 1-2 acres of unimproved farm ground around here, maybe 3 if it's really rural.
uuummmmmmmmm what DIPSHIT puts out nearly 60k on a stallion but does not have a industry standard fertility test done?????
i dont know that im really buying his story. his website offers no PROOF that the stallion is steril such as vet reports or assessement from an equine reproduction facility. its rather insane for him to fully blame the lack of foals on the stallion. once bred its the MARE that keeps "in foal", the stallions job is done! it strikes me that this guy may know jack-shit about breeding horses or keeping mares in foal. there are a shit load of enviormental aspects that can cause a mare to not convieve or lose a foal. lets ask an obvious question here.
did he have fertility assessments done on the mares he bought???on account of the fact that he dropped nearly 60k on a stallion but clearly didnt have a fertility test done BEFORE be bought the horse im going to say.....no.
i know first hand that a LOT of people in the industry are total wackos and are entirely unrealistic when it comes to what they want. this guy really comes off on his website as that kind of person. he isnt offering up any SOLID proof anything hes saying. i have to agree with a few others here this really sounds like someone who is pissed as BFGH for something else entirely and is trying to cause bad press as a method of punishment or something equally wacko.
ive spent my life in this industry and i have seen some INSANE things and the most wacko, out there, WTF things i have ever seen were done by wealthy owners/breeders/trainers who thought the world revolved around them. this guys story just has to many HOLES in it for me to really believe.
also, seriously WTF with everyone freaking out over sale prices? if a farm routinly gets 20-50k for their horses so what! if WEALTHY people want to pay 35K for a Gypsy theres nothing wrong with that. American is one of the wealthiest countries in the world (or was until out national debt got out of control) we have more MILLIONAIRS per capita than any other country. our "poverty" line is the "obscenely wealthy" line in most other countries. there is NOTHING WRONG with a wealthy person(and there are LOTS of them) dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a horse or any breed for what ever purpose. i know people who payed 10-25k for their "trail horse" and it didnt hurt their pocket book one bit. for many people dropping that kind of money is no stretch and they wouldnt think of spending any less.
If you think that is worth £8,000.00 PLEASE come and buy a horse off me, PLEASE!!!
A friend of mine has a (Champion) traditional Cob mare for sale (MARE) nicely marked, a bit hot but hey she is young, for £3,000.00
And she doesn't have cow hocks.
And she is bigger than this stallion.
And she is fertile!!!!
Seriously the man that bought the horse needs his head examined, he really does, but whilst he is being certified perhaps he would just like to look at some pictures I have of some VERY nice (really are too) horses I have for sale!!!
I don't see any indication on his website that Sterile Stallion Owner is married. I think this guy needs a horse savy woman to go help him run that beautiful Florida farm and teach him how to buy quality horses. Any takers?
I'm always amazed when someone buys a stallion for stud without having a simple sperm test done first. I've encountered 3 people that purchased gypsies to stand. All 3 stallions were infertile and the owner didn't learn until after they purchased. Are gypsies less fertile than other breeds or our the owners less business smart?
Sorry guys, I was talking about a farm I bought in 1997 (but even so, can't complain about that price). Sadly, it was near Green Bay, Wisconsin and once I got rid of the Green Bay, Wisconsin based husband, there was absolutely no reason to live in such a hellacious place ever again.
I live in the PNW now and don't own a thing...lots of rescue horses that eat up every dime I can make. My goal is not to acquire any more but I suppose then I'll just start showing my colt and all the money will go there and I still won't own squat...LOL
Someone up top was worried about cleaning a feathery, furry horse? It's actually not as bad as it looks.
My Clydie has the full-on white stockings, and it's no tougher to get her feather clean than to clean the Arab. Just like shampooing your own hair. Comb it out and let it dry in the sun. The most fun is picking "ice balls" out of the feather in winter, and "mud balls" out in summer. We live where there is really clay-based soil...and the caly clumps around groups of hair and forms "beads". These dry rock-hard and clink together when the horse moves. I pick them out every few days with a flea-comb...or just get her to put her foot in a bucket. As long as the feather doesn't stay damp for weeks on end, you're at no more increased risk for scratches...but you do need to watch for it.
Word to the wise though, most of the time that feather just lies neatly beside the hoof...you need to spend a long time blow-drying it to get it THAT fluffy. Thankfully, that isn't encouraged at Clydesdale shows! We just have to worry about stupid scotch knots...
Also, the body fluff on Gypsy Cobs is prized in North America. Go to the website of one of the new "registries" that sprung up for them. The definite criteria is, the more fluff, the better.
With Clydies too, any fluff/whiskers below the lip are to be kept...even mares should have a healthy "beard"...but above the lip, you're meant to trim the whiskers for show.
Gypsy Cobs are NOT a breed.
If you cross a Haflinger with a gypsy horse you get an unregisterable mongrel so why would you do that???
WHY would you???
I am not taking a pop at you- the horse may well have a good length of stride and be what you want- good for you, he has a good home and an appreciative owner but he is still a mongrel.
They are not a breed, they are - well, you can see what they are- the Grey is a Shire X Cob gelding standard carthorse- I have never been able to work out why anyone would want to ride a cart horse but I guess we are all different??
The black is a Cob X Shire gelding standard bit of rubbish.
IF the Gypsy Cob is ever to become a breed, with pattern requirements as in Appies, then the first thing to understand is that neither of these horses meets the requirements.
Even though they are both Sabino it appears minimal and is not a good way to go if you require full pattern as it needs another pattern (often Tobiano) in order to express fully.
Before these things caught on these cobs were all going to slaughter.
Now they are all going to America- the bottom will drop out of that market soon and what will America do with them, as there is now no slaughter??
i too never heard of a 'gypsy vanner' until a few years ago, and i just figured this was a marketing thing.
however, i HAVE seen pix of the Household Cavalry drum horses. are these pretty much the same thing, and who would need one, unless you need to carry drums for the Household Cavalry?
Has anyone done a test to see if these sterile stallions are vasectomised???
No, of course they aren't.
Gypsies are a flipping nuisance but they are NOT daft!!!
If there are too many Gypsy Stallions out there then there are less Americans coming over to buy "gypsy cobs"!!
Most "gypsy cobs" are bred in Wales, BTW, as it is a nice sideline to the puppy mills.
There's nothing wrong with Gypsy Vanner's and there is nothing wrong with liking them. I love this blog but we all gotta remember that it's just a matter of taste... one person loves minis and cant understand why you'd love a quarter horse, while the QH person would as soon feed an arabian to his dogs instead of ride him, meanwhile the arabian owner would never look twice at a warmblood, as the warmblood breeder calls out the friesian for being an imposter.
There's nothing wrong with Gypsy. Someone who has the 50k to buy a Gypsy most likley has enough money to keep it. Though I personally could think of 5,000 other ways to spend that money, if thats how he wants to spend it because HE (or she) likes Gypsys... so be it. And if that Gypsy gets sent to slaughter, that owner probably would have just as soon sent any other horse to slaughter.
I personaly think Gypsys are adorible... if I was into driving, I'd totally try to find one in my price range.
But I'm not about to kid myself and buy a Gypsy for dressage or jumping. 'Cause I'm not an idiot.
... This guy? AN IDIOT.
Did he really NEVER think to get a fertility test ON HIS OWN? DONT EVER TRUST THE SELLER!
Guh.
He obviously had some money to blow at some point (the owner) because his farm is huge! LOL. Very nice facility. Obviously, he isn't thinking much about his gypsies.
However, he does have good taste in paint sires (can't say anything about the mare). He has a Will Spot Ya colt on there.
http://www.bit-n-heavenstables.com/arkan.htm
Found that humorous.
He is a nice boy, though. He would make a nice gelding. I think it is really NOT classy that he is talking about Black Forest like that. Yes, if they did it, then take them to COURT. However, it makes you (as a breeder) look really trivial by posting that.
Love the blog!
For more WTF
http://www.horseville.com/horses/horse109474.html
Oh, I found the mom of that Will Spot Ya colt:
http://www.bit-n-heavenstables.com/jetfrost_paintme_gold.htm
I don't know about her quality but apparently, she is a "Quarter Horse Paint". Wow. I wish I had me one of them. I thought they were only double registered that way.
And her colt is a 'tabiano'.
Someone needs a wikipedia serach bar. They could have looked up TOBIANO and figured out what the heck it was and that "Quarter Horse Paint" is not a breed. Apparently he is also from the "dark brown gene". Huh?
Flying K
Wow, just what I always wanted - a PONY that is "registry pending" to breed my mare to. Geez. He's 7, what do you want to bet he has been "pending" all his life? And he has had no training? Wow. Impressive. There are a million nice Quarter HORSE stallions out there that are REGISTERED and TRAINED and plenty of POAC studs that have the same things going for them.
exesblueeyeddevil said...
I had a thought, maybe he was really stupid not getting more info on his "stallion".
But maybe he wasn't serious about selling him, maby he is just really pissed at the stable he bought the horse from and wants to let everyone know how much money he is out?
That was my thought also.
Holy Crap!
...and I thought "I'd" got ripped off big time.
Well, actually I did get ripped of big time but the seller who pulled this off should go down in history!
Pretty horse. Way the heck overpriced.
Trustworthy souls are hard to find in the horsemarketing arena. I'm going to read this man's story.
Just to put the price tag a bit in perspective, on the hunter/jumper A circuit, a "cheap" horse would cost you 150,000....and it's becoming increasingly common for them to go for over a mil. (It always blows my mind when I hear of people spending 850,000 on a horse for their 15 year old daughter...) "Expensive" is relative. And on that note, no, I don't think the price tag on this horse is appropriate.
sarcastabitch - question: how do you keep the feathers from staining? I can't keep my QH gelding's socks clean for the shows (there is only so much the blue shampoo can accomplish)....if you can keep all that lovely fluff clean, certainly you have some magic that could work for my little dirt magnet!
...and this year at the Appleby's Fair, one of the little spotted cobs drowned. His owner obviously wasn't aware, what he could have charged for the horse here in the States instead of forcing it to go in the water and forcing it's head under.
Sorry Fugsy, I can top that one. Some folks we know with more money than brains, went out and spent $85,000 for a gelding! He was Horse of the Year in his breed.
He also dropped dead 3 months later, while on the hot walker. It seems he had a heart problem which was NOT detected in the pre purchase exam- because one was never done!
Everyone just figured since he had been hauled and shown extensively and was fit and sound he was a safe bet. How sad.
No problem for the new owners, they went out and bought another horse.
I agree with you. I could spend THAT kind of money on a lot of things.
sarcastabitch - question: how do you keep the feathers from staining? I can't keep my QH gelding's socks clean for the shows (there is only so much the blue shampoo can accomplish)....if you can keep all that lovely fluff clean, certainly you have some magic that could work for my little dirt magnet!
I primarily use the blue magic shampoo. I comes in lots of names, but it is SO blue that it turns your hands indigo.
The other thing that works really well is organic cleaners. Fast Orange, Oxy Clean...they break up organics, so they work really well on poo and grass stains.
If you live somewhere with that lovely red soil though I can't help...that stuff is a NIGHTMARE.
Kristen,
i agree with you fully on the "expensive is relative" factor. for some reason people seem attack buys who spend large sums of money on a horse for what ever reason. for a lot of people 50k is a drop in the bucket. i can tell you if i had a million-five a year income i couldnt think twice about dropping 50k on a horse i WANTED.
people who market to the wealthy american market usually arnt monster, cheats or scam artist. they are smart people who know business and know marketing. i tell you for a fact that i can take a horse from a small "middle class" stable and walk it across the street to a "high class" barn and without doing anything up the price by ten grand, and get it! it has NOTHING to do with the horse and everything to do with the ATMOSPHERE. many wealthy people want a very specific enviorment and WANT to pay for "the packaging". in other words wrap any horse up in a pretty package and many people feel 99% better about paying a high price for it. they WANT to pay more because they think its "worth the money" if it looks classy. these are people who have so much money that they can pay for the high class enviorment. most are not trainer or professionals and many dont even show. it doesnt make them snobby or elitist, it just makes them differnt than the rest of us. they know what they want and they are willing to pay for it. yes ,you will always have the elitist assholes who really think they are better than you, but contrary to popular belief its not a universal attitude. the nicest, most down to earth, WONDERFUL clients ive ever worked with had VERY deep pockets.
also if youve ever dealt with the nightmare of importing horses you will know why people have no problem dropping a ton of cash to have someone else do the work for them. yeah you could pop over to the UK to look at Gypsys(cuz you can take a week from work right?) you could ride and try two dozen horses (cuz you can afford to get bucked off an unfirmiliar horse and get injured right?), you could spend days getting all the proper vet paperwork, passport and shipping papers(cuz that a total peice a cake right?) and then you can hop on the plane and fly over with your horse then spend weeks dealing with the quarentine hassel (cuz we all have that kind of time right?) and get yourself a Gypsy(or anything) for cheap. the finacial and physical cost and hassel of networking, finding horses, trying horses, closing sales, aquiring paperwork and actually shipping the animal is SUBSTANTIAL. imported horses are a small fortune for a reason, and a huge part of it is the techinical details of international purchases and imports.
just because someone else has the money to drop 50k on a horse (for whatever purpose) is no reason to harbor ill-feelings. it strikes me that many people seem to get down right angry at those who CAN spend the money, ONLY because they themself do not have that kind of wealth. expense, value and worth all relative terms.
Geld the Fugly!..... One of the horses I used to show had white socks. I would take my handy-dandy little Oster clippers with a guard and clip the white socks... much easier to scrub that way and a lot of the stained hair is gone.
The idea of a big, lots of white, fuzzy horse scares the hell out of me!
You know, I remember showing against a $150K gelding about 15 years ago but damn it, he was actually worth it. Beautiful horse, great jump, elegant, versatile. And most importantly - all that and amateur/youth friendly. He had a very extensive record. I understand 6 figure prices for a horse that wins on a national level like that. But yes, it has to be PROVEN.
Our $2500 gelding DID however kick his high priced little butt in the jumper class. I don't know if it's gotten more competitive, but back then, nobody in AQHA would gallop for anything (convinced it would "ruin them") so we went in there with Mr. Cheapy Horse with a 15 year old kid up, ran like hell, won the class and got a point. Beat Sonny's Hot Jazz too. That was fun. :-)
Kyani - LOVE your Oddie! He's so CUTE!
On the fluffy-footed cart horse? Many here are asking: where does this guy get off with a price tag like that and since when can he pass his loss off on the next buyer?
To be honest, that guy can ask whatever he wants for him and for whatever reasons he states. Now the question would be what person in his or her right mind would fall for this crap! Oh, I forgot, this idiot did fall for it...
You'd think he'd at least try to make up some story about why the price is so high - I mean, if you're going to rip someone off, at least make it interesting!
I keep the whites clipped fairly short (though don't want pink socks so I do leave a little hair), wash with blue shampoo, and Showsheen the heck out of the clean socks to try to prevent stains from sticking....but my horse is like a grubby kindergartener. He is impossible to keep clean. Good thing he has fairly little chrome to worry about! Fave trick is to poop and then stomp around in it and get it really mashed into the hind whites. If you squint, it looks like a Monet masterpiece.....I'll have to try the OxyClean - that is a VERY good tip.
Hah! Pensacola! I know that place. Hmmm maybe he will be ready to sell for el cheapo in a couple of years...
I guess the guy never heard of these facts of life:
The hoss dealing business is so crooked it makes a tesseract of itself with all the loops and ins and outs and new scams and old scams that still seem to work.
The hoss dealing business hasn't changed in 3,000 years. The horse you THINK you are buying bears absolutely no resemblance to what walks off the trailer into your yard. Get over it, educate yourself so you don't make the same dumb mistakes next time, and for God's sakes, don't blame the horse!
VETERINARY PRE-PURCHASE EXAMS ARE A REQUIREMENT IF YOU ARE GOING TO BUY A HORSE. Double the importance of that statement if you are buying a horse to be used for breeding, mare or stallion.
Just thinking it's true does not make it so. Tinkerbell will NOT gasp life into her microscopic lungs just because you clap your hands. Doing anything on faith where horses are concerned isn't just retarded, it's a disservice to the horse (which you will probably dump at the next auction because YOU got taken. Why take it out on the horse? Lash yourself across the back a dozen strokes with a riding whip if you want -- but the horse is blameless here.)
If you expect truth in the hoss dealing business, and have an endless supply of Mary Sunshine goodwill at heart for these incredibly crooked people -- guess what: You are GOING to get what you deserve. Approach horse sales knowing you're going to be lied to and take the proper steps to see to it the horse you buy IS basically what you want (with a little rehab., retraining, love.) There ARE no perfect horses, or if there are, they are owned by people who won't sell them for any money.
Fugly - Sonny's Hot Jazz? That is freakin' awesome! :-)
I remember scrubba-scrubba-scrubbing the white hind socks for show that I had to leave early in the morning for. I wrapped her legs with polo wraps, and the next morning she'd somehow managed to filter pooh & dirt in between the wraps. She looked like a zebra-horse, with the dirty stripes. Luckily, it hadn't totally stained, and I was able to scrub them down fairly quickly. But they always got filthy again in the trailer.
Yeah, those fluffy feet and all those pretty colors do something to blind a person. I'd give $2,000 for him today -- providing he was gelded as part of the pre-purchase negotiation.
However, that would be my first AND last offer. Why? Gypsy Vanners all have the same physical problems as any draft horse (tendency to Laminitis and Founder, hard keepers, tendency to colic when the weather changes -- and they are dumb as a loose stack of bricks.) Because they are pony sized in a large horse body, they have even more problems with their legs and hips than most.
They're pretty, but pretty and pretty useless aren't a good mix.
I could care less if someone has deep pockets and wants to pay 50 grand for a 2 grand horse, but if you're going to buy a stallion for breeding, get a fertility check - your own fertility check no the one the seller provides. Duh. It's called business sense and I certainly don't envy this fool or sympathize with his situation.
Wow look at that place, you lot seem to turn out these picture perfect facilities like cookie cutters. Though I was a bit confused by the "Wig Wam". And also glad to see that the horses still produce nasty bare patches round the gates etc. :)
Kirri, "Cob" refers to a small draft horse. They can easily pull wagons; they are easier to harness due to size, and take less feed, also due to size.
"Cob" is not a breed; it is a body type.
Yes, a Gypsy/Haflinger cross is a "mongrel" or, as we say in the horse world, a "grade" horse.
Section C of the Gypsy registry allows for the registering of a horse with a certain percentage of Gypsy horse blood. I've seen another registry that will take them too. I suspect that the additional "cob" registry will help in preventing "look alikes" from being sold as "Gypsy" horses.
My little fugly mongrel looks great! He has feathers and spots. He is the most beautiful colt I've ever seen! He's smart too and gentle. I really like him. A lot.
On the feather cleaning thing: don't you guys enjoy grooming your horses? Here you are, spending all morning brushing and combing, and then you turn your horse out and s/he rolls in something dark and sticky.
You get to groom the horse all over again!
As for feathers, if you don't enjoy grooming, get a clean-legged horse.
I e-mailed the rocket scientist breeder/owner of the most ridiculously expensive hairy feathered gelding:
My e-mail to him:
Why on Earth would you pay that much for a stallion and not get it fertility tested? I don't care if they showed you a report, you get your own report from your own vet.
And are you seriously trying to pass on your losses to another buyer?? What planet are you from? You got screwed, so hey screw the next guy? Give me a break.
It's good that stallion IS sterile. You shouldn't be breeding anyway. You do realize that in Europe thay laugh at idiotic Americans who fork over thousands and thousands of dollars for cart horses?
---------------------
His answer:
The real issue is where I purchased him and how they have passed on sterile stallions before. I fully intend to sue them and right now I am getting dialog on the situation.
Most people realize this and don't send hateful notes. You are the idiot!!
Mike
I'm wondering how much the guy actually paid for the sterile horse. Sure, his price now is $57K or whatever, but what does he say that he paid?
From the looks of his setup, he is someone with WAY more money than he has sense. I was tempted to email him and ask what kind of fool buys a breeding stallion without a fertility test, from a VET, in WRITING. But it would be wasting my time and I'm tired hearing their excuses.
I remember reading about NH Love Potion selling for that rediculous amount of money. I then saw her, up front and personal, at the Arab Horse Nationals later that year where she went(I believe) Reserve Champion Halter Mare at the Arabian Horse Nationals. Seeing her that closely, showed me she had many faults, but the money her new owner paid, insured her a place in Arabian Horse history. Her conformation, while quite good, was not that much better than other mares in the same class. And good for you on the purchase of your new utopia! Good deals can be had, but one has to live in out-of-the-way places. Florida is probably not one of them, but if you want to live a bit further from a big city (where a BIG city is one with a population of 100,000 people or less) in an area that might occasionally get snow, there are places out there.
horsepoor:
No, I think this guy has proven that he is the idiot. I'd love to be able to track this guy's "lawsuit" and see how quickly it gets thrown out.
I love the fact that he's advertising lessons/training...and since he is listed as "sole owner/operator," I'd assume he is also the trainer? YAY!
The fun continues.
As the saying goes, God looks out for idiots.
On the feather cleaning thing: don't you guys enjoy grooming your horses? Here you are, spending all morning brushing and combing, and then you turn your horse out and s/he rolls in something dark and sticky.
The best is pitch. Or sap. God.
I totally fall into that "fairy horse girl" category though. I just love trotting around the ring with my high-steppin' horse, fluffy feathers flying. Now, most people don't consider Clydesdales, "fairy horses"...but my 6' tall self would look ridiculous on a Gypsy Cob...or any cob for that matter. So my fairy tale horse is a tried and true plow horse. Really. 12 years on the plow...retired to the easy life of beginner adult H/J with me :)
^ note, it is "feather", not feathers. You know us fairy girls, so careless.
This guy should be careful about bad mouthing that breeder. If he has no proof they did anything wrong he could end up in hot water.
They are still in business. I wonder how long this guy will be? If that breeder is perpetrating fraud on the scale this idiot is implying, they'd be shut down and in jail.
Did anyone see this on the website? Bit-N-Heaven Gypsy Horses
Owner Operator
Arkan - A Sterile Gypsy Stallion
How to Sell A STERILE Gypsy Stallion
It is easy to sell a sterile stallion to an unsuspecting buyer.
1. Post information on the internet professing his fertility and volume of his sperm.
2. Give a 30 day money back guarantee knowing well that it will take months to show up as being sterile.
3. When the buyer finds out that the stallion is sterile. Say that he was fertile when he was sold and that something must have happened after the sale.
4. Refuse to make the transaction good and deny responsibility.
This is great for the seller but the seller did say that the stallion settles mares easily. This stallion has bred many mares and has produced NO Foals. No mares are in Foal to this stallion.
These are the facts. The stallion known as ARKAN, son of Lion King is sterile. Is now and has always been STERILE. I have 4 mares that will not have foals for 2008. Costing me about $35,000.00
hmm.. and your solution is to add that cost to the price and tell them it's sterile but the price is heigh cuz you paid alot?!
America has always had a love affair with hairy horses. When you paint them pretty colors and make them riding sized, we get a little crazy ;) I'm sorry all the brits think we're bonkers for buying gypsy horses and hoarding them like they are solid gold, but we feel the same way about how Quarter Horses are in some areas- there's a reason "imported" always costs more! You have Gypsy horses, we don't, so we have to pay bucks to get them. On the other hand, $500 will net you any one of a hundred decent quarter horse babies here.
I love hairy horses, and I have always adored drafts. So much so I bought one myself. He's even a mongrel that someone was dumb enough to breed, can you imagine? Of course, he sold within a week of going on the market (to me!) and I get at least 5 comments a day on how gorgeous he is, so pfft. I'd rather have a mongrel than pay $20K for an imported cart horse (even if the cart horse is hairier!).
Did anyone notice he is also on Dreamhorse?
Arkan is Sterile and son of Lion King. The price is negotiable and includes loss of income from 4 gypsy mares that he was unable to breed. He will be sold as a gelding.
At least he will be gelding him before he sells, but asking the buyer to fork out money for your losses? I didn't see the word A$$HAT across his forhead, but I will go back and look again.
He does have a nice facility though. Too bad he couldn't buy a clue or some common sense to go with it.
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
I could feel a few of my brain cells die when I read this....
Sombebody had the biggest brainfart in history
I hope this experience scares Mr. More Money Than Sense out of the horse business. If he doesn't know the basics of buying breeding stock, I am guessing he isn't any more educated in any other area.
Fugsy I have to agree. He's probably the type to go to the airport to throw bread crumbs to an airplane.
*shaking head*
The website, Bit n Heaven, has some strange pictures on it! The foal on the porch--does she have something in her nose? His stallions are in Ireland--the dappled one in a dingy stall (In Ireland, I guess).
If he were a breeder, he would have protected himself from buying a sterile stallion. He has a nice place--he might not know much about horses, though.
The whole place looks sterile...how about some manure piles, an old tire, something. . .
As for the Arab mare, my husband had the displeasure of working with *Gardenia. Anyone remember her? She was the Arab mare who sold at auction for 1.5 M only no money ever changed hands. This was the beginning of the end, and brought the feds in to investigate the whole hide your money in horses and write everything off scam that brought down the Arab market.
I have pictures of her at Mr. C's place back in the day. What you cannot see from the pictures is that she weaved and cribbed in a stall and paced while in pasture. She also had horrible front legs, to go with her disposition. All of which she passed on to her foals! Brilliant!
They hid her out in one of the back barns because of all this. Can you blame them?
exesblueeyeddevil said...
I had a thought, maybe he was really stupid not getting more info on his "stallion".
But maybe he wasn't serious about selling him, maby he is just really pissed at the stable he bought the horse from and wants to let everyone know how much money he is out?
I agree with that. It looks like he's just out to show the world who cheated him and why they shouldn't be trusted
Although I wish that people who waste money on stupid things would give just half of it to me
That sucker's only going to mature out to 14 hands tall. He's a little peanut horse. Maybe that means I can sell Mitchell for $70,000 since he's a full 2 inches taller as a 2 year old gelding?
I don't begrudge the man his money or his pretty barn, but christ, even if you're rich you still need to have something rolling around in your head somewhere. I'm very curious as to whether he had gotten a vet involved in the prepurchase.
As for the other poster on this blog with an axe to grind against BFS, Sorry, but when you breed to an outside stud, you 1)sign a contract that has a live foal guarantee, 2) have the stallion owner test the semen before it leaves their stallion station for motility and check for mutated sperm, and 3) have your own vet check it when it shows up. It's called covering your ass, and it's something you have to learn how to do in pretty much any aspect of life these days.
As for my tricks for white legs (and Cooper the yearling has white knees and likes kneeling in turds, apparently): I clip with 10 blades, wash the crap out of them with a bluing shampoo then soak with show sheen while the hair is still wet. If it's nasty the next morning, I wipe off what I can, and then use a green spot remover like Healing Tree WOW Spot Remover (kicks Cowboy Magic's ass in my opinion). At that point, I can use some spray-on chalk and/or corn starch and we're ready to go!
ROFLMAO *gasp* *gasp* ROFLMAO-again
I don't "get" why they admitted the whole mess! Y'all will never get out of me my goofs! They aren't as interesting anyway.
FHotD posted: "let's just try to get someone buy the world's most overpriced gelding"
Oh my, no. It's much worse than that. Because he still has ALL the liabilities of a stud--and trust me--somebody will talk whoever buys him into leaving him that way, 'cause he's so RARE--with none of the (potential) uses and benefits of an actual fertile stallion.
So, we have a studdish behaving horse, silly seller, suckerish buyer (probably), disappointed mare owners (okay, that's prob a *good* thing) and basically it's just all FUBAR.
Hmm.. I like him, if he winds up free to good home I'll take him to be a companion to my mares.. I'm sure they'd love some good lovin'.
:-P
phe - I LOVE wow! I don't have any white socks on my mare to take the green off of. However, she is a Pally and it works AMAZINGLY on her mane/tail. It also is a great touch up. I don't really like Cowboy Magic and especially not mane and tail. Absorbine or Shapely's has a better product to match all of theirs.
rdm said....
However, that would be my first AND last offer. Why? Gypsy Vanners all have the same physical problems as any draft horse (tendency to Laminitis and Founder, hard keepers, tendency to colic when the weather changes -- and they are dumb as a loose stack of bricks.) Because they are pony sized in a large horse body, they have even more problems with their legs and hips than most.
Where do you come up with this shit rdm? We have not experienced any of your complaints about draft horses. I would say the opposite is true. People who experience those problems just don't know how to care for draft horses.
Simple as that!
Ok I could not read all the comments, too many, so hopefully I am not repeating. As a long time breeder (hopefully not of Fugly horses) I would guess that this colt has been bred too young. I sold one colt as a weanling, the buyer ended up being way to anxious to put his investment into service. I heard for 3 years whining about how the colt was infertile, the guy started breeding him as a YEARLING! I told him you are not going to see any decent pregnancy results or sperm evaluations until this colt is mature, at about 3 to 5 years (this was a Warmblood, slow maturing) . Well guess what, now the colt is a mature horse and has 100% conception rate on a large book of mares and owner is thrilled.
Sometimes with these heavier types they mature much slower and you have to wait and see. I don't know whether or not this guy is fertile or not, but a lot comes into play. If the current owner bought him as a youngster he could not have tested him for fertility. I have had buyers want to do semen evaluations on yearlings and two year olds. I will NOT DO it, first of all you are not going to get good results on youngsters, secondly to do such, it would mean having to collect a youngster which is the same as breeding them, I will NOT do that to them, you will ruin them. They need to be sexually mature and know basic training before you start messing with their brains with breeding issues.
in the dozens I've seen come through quarantine, I've never seen a 'hard keeper' Gypsy. Their people just like them fat and they get fat easily, so yes, the founder, they get metabolic problems, they colic. Friesian people too... good lord, if you pet a horse and it ripples, TOO FAT. And people used to tell me my TB polo ponies were skinny.... well guys, it's the difference between the marathoner and the couch potato. Marathoner isn't skinny she's FIT, and the couch potato isn't healthy!
4thehorses said...
Although Gypsy cobs are fun to look at, they are very specialized and have a relatively small market. It's too bad that just like the Freisians, we are breeding more big fat easy keepers for the kill pens. We just don't need more big fat horses around here. But, yeah, that guy has a lot of balls passing his financial losses on.
As for the friesians... if people actually abided by the Dutch registerie's RULES, we wouldn't have an abundance of ugly misbred friesians out there (thanks a lot German registery, FHS and IFSH!). At least with the FPS (Dutch registery) you are SUPPOSED to breed to an approved stallion only with your mares. IE meaning... the stallion is PROVEN fertile and has at least minimal quality semen. The mishaps we are seeing with friesians really is all the faults of the people who just want to be able to say 'I own a friesian' and then turn to the FPVZ who DOES allow cross breeding and openly welcomes stallions that were disapproved by the FPS! There are REASONS they are disapproved! Like the friesian stallion, Krist, his owners couldn't IMAGINE how their GORGEOUS Krist could be disapproved! "he's so gorgeous!" Well, of course he's pretty to look at, thats not why he was disapproved! It was either A. Cause he semen quality SUCKED. Or B. His BABIES sucked!
But still, you don't really see many kill buyers getting their hands on gypsys and friesians... and if you do see this, I'd love to know where... I can think of a couple people who know me that would love a cheap friesian or gypsy...
Kristen wrote "one person loves minis and cant understand why you'd love a quarter horse, while the QH person would as soon feed an arabian to his dogs instead of ride him, meanwhile the arabian owner would never look twice at a warmblood, as the warmblood breeder calls out the friesian for being an imposter"
LOL that is great! The truely funny thing is, I have one of each of those breeds (well ok, no QH, but an old Paint mare). A mini gelding, my moms old Paint mare, 2 papered Arabians (and a papered half Arabian) a papered Wormblood, and a papered Friesian. And to be honnest, I LOVE each and every one of those horses.
While I do own a Friesian, and did paid more for her than any other horse (ok, I didnt pay for any of my other horses, but thats besides the point here), I bought her for me and me alone. I have no intentions of making money off of her. But, some day, I may breed her to a good Friesian stallion, I would only do it to keep it. I get asked a lot, "are you going to breed her to your stallion?" Why the hell would I cross a Friesian mare with an Arabian stallion?????
Ok, a bit off topic, but ya gotta get yer 2 bits in when ya can!
Where was I?... Oh yes, the people that I got my filly from did a wonderful job selling her to me. I bought her from another state (way too far to travel to). They sent me pictures every few weeks, emailed me at least once a week, sent me a video of her, her and her parents. They also PAID for her pre-purchase exam, her cogins, her health cert, and all her shots for me. They even had the vet call me to be sure it was all on the up and up. I did have my vet give her a basic check up, but everything was all good an well.
So even thought the breeders had, and sent with her, all that done, I still had MY vet take a look. So why the hell didnt this guy get his "stallion" checked? Especialy if you are paying such a large sum for a herd sire????
As for the aproved Friesian stallions, they are not just aproved on their sperm count. They have to go through many other tests that judge physical ability, breed standerds, mental state, and trainability to name a few. It is very exspencive, and that is why there are so few. Thats not to say I am condoning the breeding of just any stallion, its just that there is a lot to it.
To wrap this up, all I have to say, like many of you, is that this genious needs to have his head examined!!! .... idiot.
Oh yea, I guess I should mention why I have only paid for one horse in my life. My three Arabs where bred by me and my parents, my mini was given to me, and my Wormblood I got on a trade of a horse I didnt really care for. :)
fuglyhorseoftheday said...
I hope this experience scares Mr. More Money Than Sense out of the horse business. If he doesn't know the basics of buying breeding stock, I am guessing he isn't any more educated in any other area.
NO, PLEASE not until he has married me and signed everything over to me in his will.......then he can fall off a cliff for all I care, in fact I will sign him up for (very poor) abseiling lessons!!!
I WANT that farm!!!
I would KILL for that farm!
I searched for Black Forest Shires and Arkan, and found their ad-he was selling for $22,000 as a stallion. I wonder what happened that he was worth that as a stallion, and $58,000 as a potential gelding!
bwaahahahaa well a dumbass and his money are soon parted. duuhhhh i bought this here mercedes but when i popped the hood it had no engine. so im selling it for twice what i paid because i have to cover the cost of my disappointment and embarrassment too. yeeeaaahh.
sounds like sir hairyness' seed STILL hasnt gone under the microscope.. now how much would that have cost him to do before purchase? or even now, because if he wants to sue someone hes going to have to prove the state of affairs vis a vis any alleged fertility at ANY point? if he cant prove he was or was not fertile (no matter when) with test results, hes got no case. no flipping evidence, asshat. hope the judge can see he was taken for a sucker and refuses to compensate him for his own stupidity.
sad, sounds like love potions story was very like that of poetin, who sold for 2.5 million euro. though she never came to ruin and neglect, she did die young and tragically. but her price... she was worth every penny. she was worth TWICE that. hence her final owner having her cloned ;)
Ok. the approval process for Friesian stallions in the FPS is very stringent (one of the toughest) but those that don't quite make it are still pretty good horses (note those that JUST didn't make it, not everything that just happens to have testicles). What you find with a lot of the stallions that are dissaproved on offspring is that just aren't adding anything. The offspring aren't rubbish (some of them in turn can in fact go on to be fully approved sires) just the stallion is deemed not to be improving the breed. Some stallions have been knocked out based on the snapshot of their young progeny only to have those bloodlines later sought out because the mature horses have proved to be good performance horse.
No system is perfect.
And being only able to access these stallions by frozen semen,(the FPS give us an in between license for remote areas) I can tell you some of those approved sires have pretty crappy semen!
Wow... I just have to say two things. One who ever said that "Trading Papers" was poorly written wasn't exhaggerating... it was BAD. Also the end will slap you in the face as "HUH?" Secondly, I had no idea one of Love Potion's foals was a Solstice foal. He lived at a barn I was boarding at for about 2 years. My aunt has a Half-arabian filly out of him (my aunt is a bit crazy, but her mare was a regional winner, but she thought she might get color...out of a half-arabian mare and a full arab stud...*shakes head in shame*). I do know that Solstice babies are nice, but worth the life of a mare?
phe - I did do steps one through 3 to cover my fluffly white butt - and it will still be blamed on your vet or your mare by Jeff/BFS. And then you will later find out the so called stallion, (did I mention his name yet, Rom Baro)is sterile. Do you not think it is the owners responsibility to let people know your mare didn't take because as it turns out the stallion is sterile!!! What is the right thing to do???? Yes, the responsibility lies on Jeff/BFS. It is Jeff/BFS who should make things right with all that signed on for a breeding to one of his sterile stallions, it's Jeff/BFS who should make it right in regards to the stallion/gelding. Again, I ask have none of you ever been taken advantage of? Do you just walk away when someone takes advantage of you or do you want them to make it right?
I wish I knew what people see in fuzzy horses. For pulling a nice cart maybe. But what else? Fuzzy dogs yes, fuzzy horses I'm not sure. Would he have really realized this kind of profits? And what on earth whould make a young horse like like sterile? Inbreeding? They need to take some lessons from the cattlemen on ball size. Just my 2 cents worth.
Joann -
22,000 + 35,000 = 57,000
AKA
(original SALE price) + (MONEY lost from his would-be 2008 foal crop) = (new SALE price - $1,000)
I guess the extra thousand is to cover his embarassment? Cover feeding him - or gelding him?
Doesn't matter the breet, if you buy a stallion that you intend to use as a breeding animal, you test it for fertility. Stupid is as stupid does. That he's mad about now just shows he THINKS he got taken. Sorry but if you fail to do something you should have done, whose fault is that? Black Forest does import quite a few Gypsy Horses they buy low and sell high. What stock trader doesn't do that? People buy what they want with money they apparently can afford to spend. So let em. If someone wants to plunk down a hundred grand on a car they drive maybe once a week to impress the golf buddies no one really questions that. The Gypsy Vanner thing is a phase, a fad and it will eventually fall to people who just like fluffy legged horses to keep it going. Not people who want to have a pony the nieghbors don't have yet.
If that were my horse, I wouldn't write him off as sterile, especially at that age, without several tests at a mature age. There can be many reasons why a young horse isn't settling mares. If there is a history of sterile stallions originating from this farm (or bloodline), then yes, I would be very suspicious of this one. Most people do not select their breeding stock based upon breeding soundness - they choose based on everything but. In a natural setting, these things take care of themselves, and horses who are not breeding sound will not breed on. Problem eliminated from the gene pool. BSEs are not hard to do, or expensive, in relation to the value of a good stallion, and are a necessary part of buying and owning a potential breeding horse. In fact, a responsible stallion owner will have these tests done on an annual basis, as the numbers (and the health of the horse) can certainly change from year to year on some horses. Some stallions can only live cover; many do not collect/cool/ship/or freeze well. We do not enough details on this particular case to make a judgment either way.
I do agree that trying to recoup "loss of use" shouldn't be passed on to a prospective buyer - that is what insurance is for.
I do agree that trying to recoup "loss of use" shouldn't be passed on to a prospective buyer - that is what insurance is for.
You're 100% right, but SOOOOO many people new to horses don't have a clue that you can even GET insurance on them. Sad. :(
And rbs or whatever, you really musn't know about drafts. Hip and leg problems? Usually only if you destroy them by riding/driving too hard too young.
Founder? Only if you let them at the grain bin. You need to realise that they have slower metabolisms (hence "cold blood") so feeding them sugar (short chain carb) rich diets is a fast track to problems. Yes, they can have grain...but you need to know what you're doing. They are very easy to overfeed.
Hoof problems? LOTS of drafts with "bad feet" really just have "bad farriers". A farrier that does a super job on TBs and QHs MAY do equally great on drafts...but he'll know that they have REALLY DIFFERENT hoof growth patterns than a light horse. They are big, heavy animals and their feet DO need attention. With my girl, I actually have to take the nippers (17" ones) to the FLARE. I would never do that on a light horse, you'd cut right in to the lamina...but on a draft, their feet grow more like trees (rings outward) and you HAVE to clean up that flare OFTEN or they crack and split to total crap.
Hard keepers? Some times...just like any other type of horse.
Who did the seller's fertility check? A licensed veterinarian or the seller.
Knowing the seller's past, I think that the seller knew that he had a dud.
>>>>>doitright said...
rdm said....
However, that would be my first AND last offer. Why? Gypsy Vanners all have the same physical problems as any draft horse (tendency to Laminitis and Founder, hard keepers, tendency to colic when the weather changes -- and they are dumb as a loose stack of bricks.) Because they are pony sized in a large horse body, they have even more problems with their legs and hips than most.
Where do you come up with this shit rdm? We have not experienced any of your complaints about draft horses. I would say the opposite is true. People who experience those problems just don't know how to care for draft horses.
Simple as that!
October 17, 2007 7:46 PM<<<<<<<<
--------------------------------
Agreed! I've never heard of this crap before with drafts. We have a draft cross (Belgian) and he's never had any health problems. He's a very easy keeper and gets minimal low-protein grain and mostly a hay/grass diet. He's healthy sound and wonderful - and he's certainly not dumb (what a load of shit)! I know people with drafts and they don't have any problems with them. You can have founder/health issues with any horse that's not cared for properly. And any breed can have it's share of stupid just like the human race. *eye roll*
forthefutureofthebreed said...
If that were my horse, I wouldn't write him off as sterile, especially at that age, without several tests at a mature age.
This is an excellent point, I have had recent experience with a stallion with good breeding history suddenly shooting blanks. The problem? He was moved from his cool Tenn. home to lovely hot Texas, then hauled to collection in a closed trailer. Yep, swimmers were done for. If the owner hadn't had previous folas from him, and frozen that had been collected in Feb, we might have thought he was sterile. This guy bought a GV from Washington State, then moved him down to hot muggy FLA, where I know his hairey little butt is out in the pasture breeding mares. He is also way too young at 3 to have consistance sperm count. If this guy is serious about breeding these fairey fluffs, he needs to air condition his barn and collection area, and give his boy a bit more of a chance before he tosses him away. And Body clip!
^
Draft crosses are NOT drafts. Some have more draft characteristics than others, but usually draft crosses are more like light horses...depending on the percentage.
Wuld you all please read the post in the training discussion board, under general discussion - horse related - by Gypsy__. Her two horses were shot dead in her pasture in California. Please go read it. Thanks!
Sorry, the post I'm referring to is entitled "Horse Abuse"
Horsepoor said
Agreed! I've never heard of this crap before with drafts. We have a draft cross (Belgian) and he's never had any health problems. He's a very easy keeper and gets minimal low-protein grain and mostly a hay/grass diet. He's healthy sound and wonderful - and he's certainly not dumb (what a load of shit)! I know people with drafts and they don't have any problems with them. You can have founder/health issues with any horse that's not cared for properly. And any breed can have it's share of stupid just like the human race. *eye roll*
I have had other people spout this off to me too, it
s almost like an urban legend. Or else they know someone who knows someone who had problems with their draft.
I have had several full and draft crosses. They have all been easy keepers, had good feet (once they were in a regular foot care routine) and were remarkably easy to train. They all seemed to have a real work ethic, they wanted to work for you. Of course the full drafts I had gotten from the plow, so my 'job' of carting around riders on trails, and doing some dressage was a 'sweet gig' as far as they were concerned!
But even the draft crosses were good workers, and one was the smartest horse I have come across. Clyde/TB cross, was basically 8 and green broke pasture ornament. In 2 months picked up dressage basics, jumping, and figured out how to open every gate, door, or latch no matter what we did! (even a sliding full door, pushed it over with her hoof until she could get her nose through, then she was out) Fortunately she didn't want to go anywhere, just wanted to see what the people were up to, and was it interesting.
And after trainging TB's you have to love the draft reaction time. Deer dashes by..3 min later, horse goes, 'Hey, what was that?' LOL!
I have to agree w/ the other poster who suggested that the guy is trying to get the word out re: BFS, to let everyone know what happened w/ him. The seller has the original ad from BFS as well as the info on the transaction and what's happened w/ the horse on his own website, but he doesn't have the horse listed for sale on his site. I wonder if the high price tag was to get people's attention.
I agree that he does have lawsuit material and I hope he pursues it. But I also agree--don't trust anyone when you're buying a horse--have your OWN vet check it out, put the money into your OWN testing, etc. Don't just trust the buyers.
blackfluffyhorses said...
Ok. the approval process for Friesian stallions in the FPS is very stringent (one of the toughest) but those that don't quite make it are still pretty good horses (note those that JUST didn't make it, not everything that just happens to have testicles). What you find with a lot of the stallions that are dissaproved on offspring is that just aren't adding anything. The offspring aren't rubbish (some of them in turn can in fact go on to be fully approved sires) just the stallion is deemed not to be improving the breed. Some stallions have been knocked out based on the snapshot of their young progeny only to have those bloodlines later sought out because the mature horses have proved to be good performance horse.
No system is perfect.
And being only able to access these stallions by frozen semen,(the FPS give us an in between license for remote areas) I can tell you some of those approved sires have pretty crappy semen!
Yea, I know the system. Also to MultiBreedlover... my point wasn't they only check semen quality, I was just referring to that since 4thehorse's comment that friesians are in a vast abundance and gettig fugly... basically... and I was pointing out that if the rules and regs were followed of FPS, we wouldn't HAVE as many randomly bred ones... Yes, there are some UGLY ass approved friesians here in American (I won't give my opinion on which one in particular...) AND in Holland (again, no opinion given out)... but it wouldn't be as random and uncontrolled as it is now...
Trust me, I know the system well. ;) My dad lived in Holland before I was born and has since moved here and started the friesian business on the west coast along with many of the other friesian breeders out here along with Fred Deboer. I've been to Holland MANY times to watch the stallion inspections and to pick out my onw horses from there. It is far to complicated to explain to someone who doesn't know about it in a comment... but for the people who DO know the process, you get my point...
Just have to pipe in, on a possible cause for poor fertility rates (in addition to those recently posted about temps and age, and maturity)
And that is this: What is happening on the mare end? Everyone here presumes it is the stallion at fault, but it may not be 100% his alone.
It could be handling, it could be training for him, and most importantly, we do not know if ANY of the mares were cultured or themselves had any pre breeding examinations.
And yes even maidens should be cultured. I know this from experience.
>>>>sarcastabitch said...
Draft crosses are NOT drafts. Some have more draft characteristics than others, but usually draft crosses are more like light horses...depending on the percentage.
October 18, 2007 6:56 AM<<<<<
Whose being an arrogant know-it-all now? Draft crosses are too Drafts. They are also just as prone to EPSM as full Drafts. And my draft cross is NOT a light horse. The Draft part is quite obvious.
Here's the link to the shot hroses post. Please read this. Thanks http://p068.ezboard.com/ffhotd64476frm10.showMessage?topicID=88.topic
For the people saying cobs are hard keepers etc., I'd just like to say they are known in Britian for being very EASY keepers.
For example, Oddie is out 24/7 most of the year (he could be all year round except he thinks he's so important he needs to come in for winter nights and has a sulk if he doesn't, big pansy) with only a light rug on in winter (remember, this is UK climate). He gets a handful of mix/hi-fi as a reward for coming in in summer (the way to a cob's heart...) and a small feed once a day in winter. He gets ad lib hay in winter, but he mostly just spreads it around and protects it from the other horses. In the summer we have to section off the fields so they get a very limited amount of grass. He's a riding school horse, meaning he does at least an hour of work every day, which goes up to 3/4 on weekends.
He's FAT. The pic in my profile is him at his fittest. He is an easy keeper and will never be slim. He lives on air, and manages to get obese on it for most of the year.
He has an apple-obsession. Being kiddie's favourite, he gets treats. One time he broke out of his stable and demolished an entire carrier bag full of apple someone had left on a table. The whole thing, about 25 apples in one go. We panicked, of course, but he was very happy with himself. Apparantly he does that kind of thing regularly. He has NEVER gotten colic.
He's never had a problem with his feet, either. He has the most solid, perfect feet I've ever seen on a horse, and never loses shoes or goes lame.
We say he's made of iron. Never been ill a day in all the time we've known him (12 years). He's 24 years old.
And he's pretty typical for his breed.
On a more serious note.. Irish reader,here love the blog..this is my first time to comment, cos I couldnt stop laughing at how stupid that guy is!!
Im off to start collecting all the knacker (or pikey / gypsy as u call them) coloured horses around me and shipping them to America!!
"The closest this lot would get to being Irish is probably sniffing the breath of someone who has recently had a pint of Guinness"
I hope the didnt sniff a Guinness fart while they were there.. LMAO!!
No, we are probably not yet seeing the Gypsies and Friesians at the cheap auctions yet, but like the big QH & Paint glut of recent years, and the coming glut of gaited horses, the baroques will be next. Actually probably after the American warmbloods, then the baroques.
Bubba!
I bought a breeding from Rom Baro please contact me ASAP.
@ raven26g@yahoo.com
Yep unfortunately after perusing the draft crosses available for sale on horsetopia.com (hundreds) and gasping at some of the most fugly damn horses I've ever seen (frankenhorses), the auctions will be overrun with them in the near future. They are awful proud of their frankenhorses though. 2 to 5 grand for these fugs? Dang. I wouldn't give a plug nickel for most of them. The stupid BYB's need to figure out no one is going to pay high dollar for their weird frankenhorse project as a jumper/eventer. Crazy.
So you people have never trusted anyone at all in your intire life.
If you do your research and I mean (do your research) This farm is one of the largest Gypsy breeding farms. The add for selling Arkan read he collects well and settles mares well and his numbers are great. False advertisment if you ask me. Why are you guys downing the buyer when the seller lied and sold Arkan under false pretenses. And if you done your researh he sold several breedings that were all sterile and has had several lawsuits against him. I have done my research why don't yall do yours and see he is a cheat.
This is not a trust issue. You pay thousands for a breeding animal, you get a vet check/fertility check - your own, not the seller's.
There's no friggin way I would fork over that kind of cash for an animal without verifying that it's healthy and fertile.
DUH.
Redsmom said...
Here's the link to the shot hroses post. Please read this. Thanks http://p068.ezboard.com/ffhotd64476frm10.showMessage?topicID=88.topic
I went and read the post and left a message. I also posted on the original thread. Having lost a horse to a crazy, gun happy neighbor several years ago I definitely can feel the owners pain.
Please get this straight.
The guy is not actually trying to sell that fluffy GV almost-gelding.
He said as much in an email posted further up in these comments.He is trying to gather evidence for a lawsuit he intends to bring against the previous owner. More money than brains and the only person gettng rich here is the lawyers who engage these clowns.
The ad is his way of venting.
The original purchase price of $22,000 is quite low for a quality breeding stallion of that faddish breed. And its a nice looking horse, probably as a broke gelding he might get, as the Brits here have said, $15-20K. The asking price of $58,000 is just to make it blaringly obvious that the current owner is pissed off and feels he's lost $35,000 worth of mares who didn't take. it only makes him look silly. What- did the fluffy horse EAT those broodmares or somehow make them permanently infertile? Scare them off sex or something?
I know someone who bought a highly rated european stallion for megabucks. The thing had produced many succesful get in international competition and his name appears in many famous pedigrees. When she bought him, he was senior, but still tested fertile and his semen froze and transported well. Well, she gets him over this side of the pond, and he won't collect. Gets shy around humans handling his private area. Will only do live cover. And they are out in the wilds of the prairies, where Live cover gets to be expensive, I mean who will ship the mare 1000 miles to be covered when you can buy semen from another horse and have it shipped? So basically, she's breeding some wonderful horses from him on her own farm, but unable to recoup the megabucks she spent on him. Thats the luck of the draw.
HorsePoor said...
This is not a trust issue. You pay thousands for a breeding animal, you get a vet check/fertility check - your own, not the seller's.
There's no friggin way I would fork over that kind of cash for an animal without verifying that it's healthy and fertile.
DUH.
That's what I though...
You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it/checking under the hood.
Stupid is as stupid does. Some people just have more money than sense, that's for sure.
raven, it's called "buyer beware"- ANY PERSON buying a horse should KNOW that nothing is ever certain. Pre-purchase exams should always be done (unless buyer acknowledges takes an informed risk). If you're going to spend five figures on a breeding stallion, it should be standard practice to do a PPE that includes a fertility check.
And how do we KNOW that the sellers lied? Perhaps they didn't, and perhaps the new owner doesn't collect him properly or store the semen properly.
If the sellers did lie, shame on them. But it doesn't change the fact that the buyer was a dumbass for not double checking everything before forking over his cash. Whether the horse is worth $500 or $50,000, prepurchase exams covering all potential uses should be standard procedure for any horse buyer.
raven, it's called "buyer beware"- ANY PERSON buying a horse should KNOW that nothing is ever certain. Pre-purchase exams should always be done (unless buyer acknowledges takes an informed risk). If you're going to spend five figures on a breeding stallion, it should be standard practice to do a PPE that includes a fertility check.
And how do we KNOW that the sellers lied? Perhaps they didn't, and perhaps the new owner doesn't collect him properly or store the semen properly.
If the sellers did lie, shame on them. But it doesn't change the fact that the buyer was a dumbass for not double checking everything before forking over his cash. Whether the horse is worth $500 or $50,000, prepurchase exams covering all potential uses should be standard procedure for any horse buyer.
Quite frankly I don't give a shit about the seller or if he's crooked or not. The horse world is full of crooked people. Buyers need to beware, take off their asshats and look out for themselves. I've been burned by a dishonest seller before, not on the scale this guy ALLEGEDLY was, but it still hurt me in the wallet area. That's life. You learn and move on.
An implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, sometimes referred to simply as a warranty of fitness, is a warranty implied by law that if a seller knows or has reason to know of a particular purpose for which some item is being purchased by the buyer, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is fit for that particular purpose. This differs from a warranty of merchantability in two ways:
* First, the warranty of fitness applies to all sellers, not just professional merchants; and
* Second, the warranty of fitness requires the seller to know or have reason to know of a specific purpose to which the property sold is going to be put.
The implied warranty of fitness is described in US law by Article 2, Section 315 of the Uniform Commercial Code.
This applies to horses. The guy has a case.
How the Hell do you know he has a case? This guy (buyer) doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool in the shed. How do we KNOW the horse is sterile? Just because he says so? Maybe poor wittle Mikey doesn't know what the Hell he's doing.
It's called due diligence folks. Do it before you buy!
It's like buying a house. Do you buy without a home inspection? NO. Unless you like nifty little surprises like bad plumbing, bad electrical or bad foundation or even massive termite damage and you fall through your living room floor at 2 a.m. on the way to the bathroom.
Due diligence. Gotta do it.
Horsepoor, I've never pretended to be anything BUT an arrogant know-it-all. People have stopped commenting on it. It is obvious.
Draft crosses are not drafts. When you own a real draft horse, the differences will become apparent.
You're not even worth of reply most of the time s-bitch. You strike me as most likely being a whimp in real life who likes to assert control and be aggressive cloaked in the anonymity of the internet. You are the weakest link, buh bye.
You strike me as most likely being a whimp in real life
You're right horsepoor. Your cross really IS the same as a draft. It is big and strong! It is the biggest horse on the block!
You strike me as most likely being a whimp in real life who likes to assert control and be aggressive cloaked in the anonymity of the internet
And that comment just goes to show that your impressions of people are as reliable as your "knowledge" of horses.
I really am an aggressive bitch in real life. And controlling to boot!
at this point mR.Dumbass still is yet to provide ANY proof that the horse he bought it sterile. i have to agree with many others that it is much more likely that he knows jackshit about breeding horses or maintaning stallions. there are a ton of reasons why fertility rates can drop in stallions and they are almost always ENVIORMENTAL.
serioulsy for everyone defending his "i got ripped off" claim , where is his PROOF. where are the medical reports proving this horse is steril? there are a shit ton of factor here, the horse was moved from a cool climent to a hot climent and is only a freakin BABY by maturity standards.
i cant tell you how many times ive seen a dipshit NEW breeder buy a stallion a couple mares throw them out in pasture or paddock(which results in a huge nasty fight between mares and stallion) and then freak out because there are no babies next year! seriously , makin a baby horse isnt always all that easy. sometimes it goes like clockwork, BAM first time, pregant. mare settles after being bred by a first time breeder thats only two years old and carries to term dropping a healthy foal. but the reality is it doenst always go like that.
agian this guy is providing no proof anykind of anything hes saying. he has not shown that he is a knowedgable breeder or handler, has not shown that he uses or employs an equine reproduction specialist. sometimes breeding horses must be done with more SCIENCE and physical aiding, some just dont breed well or very successfully when you just dump them in a pasture and let "nature takes its course".
if he ever actually gets to court the first thing the judge will ask is "do you have proof the horse is steril?" followed by " do you have proof the horse steril when you bought it?" and the only proof that will be acceptable is Vet reports. where are his vet reports?
To every one you think the owner is that dumb just to say the stallion is sterile do to the mares not setteling. I am sure he got the stallion tested after breeding season when no mares settled. You know like I said I done my research do yours instead of just typing what ever comes to your mind. If you are a computer whiz you can find out just about anything I have reseached his case and yes he has one. You say when you buy a car you test drive it and look under the hood but do you demand that the car be put on a test machine. NO I did not thank so.
Raven, you're sure he got the mare tested? Do you know he did?
Der, that was supposed to be stallion, not mare.
Raven I did send you an e-mail.
For the poster who wants to know if it was my mare - the answer is no, I had all the test done with my mare, she is in perfect health. When I bred her the following year to a STALLION, she took the first time. The issue is not to bad mouth anyone, it's to let the horse world know if you are going to do business with Jeff/BFS, beware!!!! Again, do your homework regarding Rom Baro - you will find articles regarding him being sterile and then later gelded. Funny how Jeff/BFS sold all those breedings to Rom Baro and after his failure to settle any mares, then turns out he's sterile and gelded, Rom Baro just disappeared from his web site never to be discussed by Jeff/BFS again. Do you research on the stallions from Jeff/BFS, you will discover more negative than positive.
Quite possibly he did get the stallion tested after the season, so he knows the big guy really is sterile. It would be nice if he'd say so in his "ad." But he still should have had him tested BEFORE buying him!
AS for trust, I have mentioned a friend who recently bought a mid-5-figures eventing horse. The previous owner was someone she's known for years, used as a jumping trainer, and trusts implicitly. But she STILL paid a grand for a pre-purchase exam with full X-rays, and it would have been stupid for her not to. The previous owner was on board 100% for the exam and was there for the whole process.
what is a "test machine"?
if im going to drop 50k on a car first off im going to get a the best WARRENTY money can buy. and when people buy high priced classic cars YES wise buyers have car put through a plethora of tests. all parts of the car are inspected by various experts including hooking it up a variety of machines that gather performance data.
the fact still remains that anyone with half a brain will NEVER take the sellers "word for it", EVER. fertility tests, assesments and exams exsist for a reason. so does insurance, any insurance would have wanted a fertility assesment done on the horse if he wanted to aquire "loss of use" insurance. smart breeders have their stallion insured out the wazoo! it still remains that if he did not have a fertility assement done BEFORE he purchased the horse there is little way to prove the horse was infertile BEFORE he bought it.
plenty of people buy stallions for the purpose of making the horse a gelding. as a seller i dont have to PROVE fertility of any stallion or colt i may sell because im not assuming the buys intend to use it as a breeding stallion. even if im selling it as a breeding stallion PROSPECT i dont GUARENTEE breeding soundness and if they want to buy it as a breeding prospect i INSIST on a fertility exam or a contract showing that the buy waved the exam. ive NEVER had a buyer NOT have a fertility assement done on any colt i sold them that they intended to use for breeding. it is up to the buyer to have a "vet check" done that determains the SUITABILITY of the horse for the purpose intended. even IF the seller KNEW the stallion was infertile and did not inform the potential buyer the buyer will have a tough time proving it. providing judicial quality proof that the seller KNEW the stallion was infertile would be extremely difficult.
what has people wriled up is that this buyer it taking NO RESPONSIBILIY for his actions (or in this case lack of actions). were is HIS responsibility in making educated, reasonable, rational and SOUND purchases? if he had been responible with his money he would have had a prepurchase fetility exam done. if the horse was proven to be infertile or have low sperm count he likely would NOT have bought the horse. again it is STANDARD to do a fertility assessment in your prepurchse exam of a horse intended for breeding. he appears to have "stepped outside the norm" by apparently NOT having the standard tests done before purchasing the horse. if he did not have the standard fertility assement done before he bought the horse then by industry standards he made a BAD purchase, plain and simple. he chose to write a check for the horse, he chose(apparently) to not have the fertility of COLT assessed, he made bad decisions which is no ones fault but his own.
*wether or not the sellers were dishonest(agian proving that is extremely difficult) is irrelevant the fact that he CHOSE to make a bad purchase by not utilizing all the industry standard proticals specificly designed to keep this EXACT kind of thing from happening.*
this is not ONE issue of did BFGH knowingly sell him a steril stallion. its TWO issues consisting of: did he made a horribly stupid decision to buy a breeding stallion without getting a fertility assessment done? AND, Did BFGH knowingly sell him a steril stallion?
How do you do the
XYZ said thing?
Anyway, Hoodsey, yep, now I see where you are coming from and explaining the whys and wherefore of the studbook seems to be a life long career :)
As for the Gypsy, as with all things we are following the US trends and they are starting to e the latest hot thing here, though not with those price tags. For niether the Friesians, Gypsies or any other breed new to our shores we do not have these people that are able to buy bucket loads of them as dealers and then sell them on.
The Gypsies are starting by one or two people importing to breed their own and they will act as agents, but only to help you buy, now buy on spec and then sell them on. Maybe we just don't have enough people with money to burn.
Certainly don;t see to many facilities like the Bit and Heaven thats for sure.
Actually Raven, when I am buying a used car (and any horse should be classified as "used" unless you're buying a just-weaned baby), I DO have it taken to AAA and put on the diagnostic machine. It would be foolish (duh!) not to. The only exception would be a dealer-purchased used car with an extended warranty. But a private sale? Darn-tootin' it's getting a diagnostic run.
Raven said: You say when you buy a car you test drive it and look under the hood but do you demand that the car be put on a test machine. NO I did not thank so.
Actually I do. I take any used car to my mechanic and have him test it using diagnostic tool (computer) and also evaluate for potential malfunctions.
Yes, if I'm spending money on a used car, I have it checked out. If I were buying a breeding stallion, I'd have a repro test.
I just read most of BFS' website. I find it very difficult to believe they are knowingly selling sterile stallions and whatever else it is they are accused of.
I'll lay you odds there's more to the story than poor wittle Mikey is telling. Without hard evidence I just don't see that farm being so corrupt.
LOL. My ex-trainer is trying to sell her mid-line warmblood pony who has been overworked (jumped regularly! done 2nd level dressage movements! wtf) at age 3 and been to 3 little schooling shows. For how much? 30 THOUSAND.
what kind of backwardsassed MORON would buy a used car without some sort of mechanical check?? thats fucking ridiculous *LMAO* i guarantee you the salesman saw you coming a mile off and directed you to the car with the cracked chassis and mismatched panels that youd drive away in just because you liked the colour and the cd player.
hmmmm... probably the same kind of moron who would buy a breeding stallion without checking its fertile.
bubba said...
phe - I did do steps one through 3 to cover my fluffly white butt - and it will still be blamed on your vet or your mare by Jeff/BFS. And then you will later find out the so called stallion, (did I mention his name yet, Rom Baro)is sterile. Do you not think it is the owners responsibility to let people know your mare didn't take because as it turns out the stallion is sterile!!
So what were the initial motility reports versus the ones that your vet did when the bucket o' boy showed up? How long did the package sit out on your doorstop before the vet showed up to breed the mare with it?
Look, I'm not trying to pick on you, breeding off-site is a pain in the ass. We've done it a few times, too. But without you providing actual numbers to back up your claims, why should I take your word over the farm's? If indeed there weren't enough viable swimmers, why haven't you invoked the contract you signed and gotten your money back? You should have a good enough paper trail if that's the case to get going on a suit.
The other thing with shipped semen is that you have to take good care of it when it comes. The vet we use for routine stuff just couldn't get semen in and get to the farm fast enough to get the mare bred and settled properly. Now we take any mare that we're breeding to an outside stud to a local stallion station run by a vet who is very good at reproductive medicine, and he handles checking the mare, ordering semen when it's time, breeding and rechecking the mare. We have yet to have a mare need more than one go after going to the stallion station.
oye vey! 2nd level dressage at 3... that makes me sick. at three you want short rides with the very basics, quiet and relaxed. Horses have so many years ahead of them, why break them down before they're even finished growing?
www.youngridersblog.com
"And its a nice looking horse, probably as a broke gelding he might get, as the Brits here have said, $15-20K."
Nuh uh. I doubt he'd fetch near that amount. People pay maybe...£4000 for a decent broke cob which goes well but without a show record. £5000's abou the best you could hope for, depending which part of the country you're in.
phe - I do have the paperwork to back up my claims. I know your not picking on me, even if you were, I can handle it and more. A good example of BFS, Call them for collection, have shipped via counter to counter, (plane), they call back to tell you what airline/flight/toa, you go to airport - NOTHING!!!!! My vet was waiting for me at the clinic - was going straight to the clinic after picking up the package, if you will. The two times before that, it was sent to the vet clinic, not my house silly, (the goods, if you will, were not good). Giving BFS the benefit of the doubt, we agreed to the counter to counter, when the third attempt failed due to them, I said that was enough. And then to find out Rom Baro was sterile.
Out of interest, how much DO people thing Oddie would fetch in the US?
He's a 14.1hh gelding Gypsy cob. 24 years old. Bay Tobi/Sabino/Splash, quite a lot of feather. Snaffle mouthed (for a year, anyway, used to be in a pelham). Kid friendly. Hacks out alone or in company. Will jump 3 foot. Never bucks/kicks/rears. 100% in traffic, and to catch/lead/clip/shoe/load. Very good-doer, never had lami/sweetitch etc.
And, if we're really being truthful...or if the buyer does their homework...
'jumps 3 foot' is only on hacks, and only on his terms.
In such moments, 'safflemouthed' becomes 'unstoppable tank'.
'kid friendly' means if they're too small to kick/pull hard enough, will justplant feet and munch grass.
'good doer' means he's obese most of the year, but so greedy he will bulldose a building to get to apples.
Only good to catch because he knows he gets fed. You stop feeding, he stops being good.
He pretends to try and bite people when you do his girth up.
Will never have decent neck muscle. Has big hammerhead. Pulls vicious/grumpy faces most of the time.
He does not school. Period. Go on. Try. I dare you.
Probably 100% in traffic because he thinks he's so important it will move out of his way.
He's the boss in the field. He's the boss of you. He's probably smarter than you. He'll tell you when it's dinner time. He'll tell you when it's too cold to be outside. Most stubborn horse in world. Does whatever the hell he likes. Immune to all persuasion. (except food)
But hey, GYPSY COB.
One thing I have noticed (at least in the horse industry) is the lack of taking responsibility for when things go wrong. The breeding side of it is not immune to this. I’ve read so many things on the internet that are so very obvious to me which side was at fault (or which side doesn’t know what they’re doing), yet the side lacking the knowledge still claims they were duped. You have to realize that most stallion owners have everything to gain by taking the steps necessary to ensure your mare gets pregnant. The people at BOTH ends of the breeding equation need to know what they’re doing, and the timing is of the essence. You cannot cut corners and expect a successful outcome. Stud fees are the LEAST EXPENSIVE part of owning and raising horses. It is not the time to be cheap, and neither is your choice of a repro vet. The mare owner needs to spend the money and get a Breeding Soundness Exam done on their mare (by a reputable, knowledgeable reproduction specialist) BEFORE she’s bred. And the stallion owner needs to know what they’re doing at their end, because their reputation (and their stallion’s reputation) is at stake. A semen evaluation needs to be done on any breeding stallion at the beginning of EVERY breeding season. And any stallion owner who values their reputation uses Equitainers to ship fresh cooled semen. They are the industry standard. Yes, they’re expensive (to buy and to ship), but they’re well worth it. If the stallion ships well, that container can sit out on someone’s doorstep for a couple of days in hot or cold weather (as long as it’s not opened), and the semen will still be viable. I’ve had my Equitainer come back to me five days after I sent it, and checked the tiny bit of semen left in the bottom of the centrifuge tube under the microscope. They were still swimming around. If the person at the mare’s end doesn’t check the semen when it arrives, they are not doing their job properly. If anyone, at either end, doesn’t do their job properly, then nothing will be accomplished. It’s like everything else pertaining to horses - if you aren’t up to the task, you need to get someone who is. Otherwise, you’re just playing around, wasting time and money, and are not serious about breeding horses. In this day and age of the internet and fast communication, word gets around quickly and can be very damaging to someone who might be innocent and totally ethical. That is not cool. If a stallion owner (or any horse person doing business with the public) is not principled, it will eventually come to light. They won’t be in business for long. If a mare owner isn’t educated enough to know what they’re talking about, that too will eventually be revealed.
Has anyone actually done any research into this guy's story? Well I have. As it turns out, The farm he bought the horse from provides a 30 day written guarantee in their contract. Now, I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to not do any tests. It's pretty obvious that this horse came up fertile for whatever reason while this guy was using him. Hell, he probably got kicked, or sick, or whatever. Now he wants his money back. So he's trying to convince us that the farm regularly sells stallions with a guarantee and then HOPES that no-one will ever check their horse. Give me a f*&$%& break. I don't know what this guys scam is, but I suspect he's trying to find justification for an outrageous price so he make an insurance claim based on that. Well, that's criminal and I hope this guy gets nailed to the wall and does time. Horse people have too many issues already to deal with where legalities are concerned. People like this just make it harder for all of us to enjoy our horses. Nobody wants to associate with people who run off to lawyers everytime something in their life isn't just right - Especially horse people. I for one would have a lot more respect for someone who admits he made a mistake, and gets on with his life. There's no respect here for someone like this. Yes, go ahead and blame all your woes on somebody else. Of course, you could stand up and be a man, but you've shown us here that you're not.
It's a good thing your mares aren't in foal (if that is in fact truthful). Would anyone here buy a horse from this type of guy? Not me... Would someone sell a horse to him?? It'll be a cold day in hell before I for one would do that.
The horse industry does not need people like this, and those that tolerate these people.
Do everyone a favor, get rid of your horses and get out of the business. You won't find any sympathy here.
Has anyone actually done any research into this guy's story? Well I have. As it turns out, The farm he bought the horse from provides a 30 day written guarantee in their contract. Now, I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to not do any tests. It's pretty obvious that this horse came up fertile for whatever reason while this guy was using him. Hell, he probably got kicked, or sick, or whatever. Now he wants his money back. So he's trying to convince us that the farm regularly sells stallions with a guarantee and then HOPES that no-one will ever check their horse. Give me a f*&$%& break. I don't know what this guys scam is, but I suspect he's trying to find justification for an outrageous price so he make an insurance claim based on that. Well, that's criminal and I hope this guy gets nailed to the wall and does time. Horse people have too many issues already to deal with where legalities are concerned. People like this just make it harder for all of us to enjoy our horses. Nobody wants to associate with people who run off to lawyers everytime something in their life isn't just right - Especially horse people. I for one would have a lot more respect for someone who admits he made a mistake, and gets on with his life. There's no respect here for someone like this. Yes, go ahead and blame all your woes on somebody else. Of course, you could stand up and be a man, but you've shown us here that you're not.
It's a good thing your mares aren't in foal (if that is in fact truthful). Would anyone here buy a horse from this type of guy? Not me... Would someone sell a horse to him?? It'll be a cold day in hell before I for one would do that.
The horse industry does not need people like this, and those that tolerate these people.
Do everyone a favor, get rid of your horses and get out of the business. You won't find any sympathy here.
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